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You asked a really good question about,

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well, what expertise did I

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bring to UAP? And the expertise

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that I bring is radiation detection,

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because dark matter detection

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is just one step away from just

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detection of any particles in general.

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Because when you're looking for a new

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particle, and you need to

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know what particles we already

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understand, you cannot claim to discover

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something new unless

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you've addressed all the existing

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possibilities. And the reason

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why that's connected to UAP is

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because of all of the claims of

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radiation. There's plenty of historical

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examples of claims of UAP

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producing radiation. And to me, that's

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really interesting because

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you can fake or hoax a video,

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it's really hard to fake a radiation

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signal. I'm not saying it's impossible,

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but like it's one thing

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to use CGI and fake people with a UFO

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picture, but radiation

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screams to me real phenomenon, very

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difficult to hoax. And again, that

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doesn't prove it's alien spacecraft, but

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it proves it's something

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weird and interesting.

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Caius Institute is a pioneer in the field

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of AI driven comparative

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and qualitative analysis,

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Head to their site to

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learn more. Caius.Institute.

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That's C-O-E-U-S.Institute. Matt, thanks

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for joining me. You are

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an associate professor,

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and you primarily focus on detections of

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dark matter, weakly

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interacting massive particles,

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another thing. You also are interested,

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or at least intrigued to some degree, by

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unidentified anomalous phenomenon. Both

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of those, I would say, are

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principles or theories that

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suffer from a lack of data that satisfies

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everyone else's say.

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Do you feel like there's

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a relation between the two as far as

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you're interested in them,

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as far as driving towards

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these conversations about things on the

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edge of our data sets, if you will, if

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not our understanding?

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Yeah, there is one major difference,

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though, which is dark

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matter is accepted by most of the

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mainstream scientific community. That

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being said, there really

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is a good analogy, actually,

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because even though I just said dark

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matter as well, accepted,

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that's really mostly within

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astrophysics, cosmology, particle

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physics. I've encountered scientists in

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other fields, including

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in other fields of physics, who will

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laugh about dark matter and say, "Oh,

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there's no such thing."

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So actually, there is a remarkable amount

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of good analogies. So

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even though one is considered

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accepted, if you talk to the right

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people, you do get laughed at for looking

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for dark matter as well.

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Interesting. Well, let's talk a little

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bit about your academic and

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professional background. Could

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you tell us a little bit about your

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studies and what you

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do now professionally?

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Sure. So I'll start with my alma mater,

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University of Chicago.

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That's where I got everything,

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actually, got my bachelor's, master's,

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and PhD there. So I

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stuck around for a long time.

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Then I went to UC Davis in California for

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a few years. And after

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that, I was and have been,

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continue to this day to be a faculty

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member at the University at

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Albany, SUNY. So that's the

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State University of New York system. So

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that's sort of my background. I'm a

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professor of physics

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at SUNY Albany. And I've been there for

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over nine years now. And my

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main effort, as we just said,

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is really the search for dark matter.

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It's my research effort.

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But as a professor, I do,

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you know, I teach courses, and I have to

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sit on committees, you

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know, nobody likes that part.

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And there's research. So being a

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professor is kind of like a

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full-time job times three.

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So I often joke with people, I work 300%

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a time because each of

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those pillars of being

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a professor, research, teaching, service,

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all can take up all your time.

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Is your teaching focused

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on your research activities?

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That's a good question. It's not. It's,

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that's a very common question that we,

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that professors often get. We teach

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whatever, whatever needs to

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be done. It can be physics,

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physics one for pre meds and those who

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hate physics. It can be a graduate course

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anywhere in between. We do sometimes get

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to, but it's very rare

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actually, we may get to teach an

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elective advanced course in our, in our

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field. So I did a few years

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ago create a class that focuses

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not just on dark matter, because that's

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too specific for one

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semester, but sort of dark matter

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within the bigger picture of what's

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called astroparticle

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physics. But I haven't taught that

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course in years, especially with the,

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given the pandemic and

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everything that electives weren't

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as high of a priority for teaching as

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like the main, the main

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focus of physics courses.

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Astroparticle physics?

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Yeah, that's the big picture name for my

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sort of where dark matter

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fits and sort of the field that,

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that I work in.

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So where, where is this, this state of

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the knowledge on, on

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that topic right now?

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So in terms of dark matter, I mean, so

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we, we, the current state

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is that we have mountains,

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mountains of evidence, but they're

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observational evidence. They're not what

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you would call direct

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evidence. So we have hints, really good

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hints. And they're very,

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very diverse. We've seen things

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like the velocities of stars orbiting

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centers of galaxies. That's

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the one of the biggest hints.

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Then there's another effect called

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gravitational lensing. That's

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where mass can distort light,

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you can then calculate the amount of mass

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that's doing the

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distortion. That's another clue that

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points towards there being dark matter

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more matter than we can

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see. And there's a whole host

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of other pieces of evidence. We've even

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found galaxies in the

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recent years that are either

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entirely dark matter or no dark matter at

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all. And that seems to

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imply that it really is stuff.

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It's some kind of stuff. And you can have

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more of that stuff

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and less of that stuff.

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So the current state of the art is that

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we have all these hints, and

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they all seem to be pointing

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towards something there. But we still

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don't have a solid grasp. We can't, we,

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we don't even have one

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theory that everyone can get behind for

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how much does one dark matter particle

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weigh. We don't even

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know that. It could be, it could take on

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any value we don't know.

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We have such a broad range

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of possibilities. So even though we have

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all this evidence from

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astronomy and cosmology,

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the current status is that we still

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haven't, from the particle

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physics angle, actually seen

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anything conclusive yet. So you guys, you

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can detect potential galaxies that are

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actually completely made of this, but

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those are still not

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considered direct observations.

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That's a really good point. Some say

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that's good enough. But for a particle

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physics, it's not good

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enough, because we still don't know what

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that is. We just know there's

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some stuff there. But that's

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not, that doesn't count as direct

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detection. Let me give you an example.

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Let's say we didn't know

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protons existed, but we detected hydrogen

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gas, which is effectively

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just protons and electrons.

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It's not the same thing. Because even if

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we have identified, you

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know, before we conclude,

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we knew atoms existed. We already knew

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what hydrogen gas was, you

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know, chemists were able to,

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you know, use it. And yet we didn't know

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that it was made of these little tiny

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protons and electrons.

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It's the same thing with dark matter. So

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I think the right analogy

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is think of chemists finding

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elements in the periodic table centuries

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ago, but without knowing what's the

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fundamental structure.

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So we know dark matter is out there, but

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we don't know what the fundamental

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structure is. So that's

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why it's not good enough to say we've got

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this evidence from our

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galaxy, this other galaxy,

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and the universe as a whole. It's still

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not good enough for most

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scientists. We need to go deeper.

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A lot of cosmology to my, you know,

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amateur eye right now seems to be a

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linking of the small with

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the big, if you will, with the quantum

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world, with the larger

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cosmology. We have E.R. equals E.P.R.,

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which is trying to combine general

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relativity, quantum mechanics to some

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degree using black holes

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and entanglement. And that is, you know,

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an example of quantum effects happening

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at a macro scale and

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us taking that into consideration. Is

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there any line of thought

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around quantum effects or that

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same type of principle applying to dark

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matter or dark energy? Yes,

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absolutely. So in fact, one of

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the things about my line of work is I'm

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always talking about how

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it links the small with the

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large, the microscopic with the

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macroscopic worlds on

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multiple scales. So even though we

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were just talking about how dark matter

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is out there and we're

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talking about galaxy, but that's

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00:09:02,625 --> 00:09:04,500
not what I do. I'm not an astronomer. I'm

280
00:09:04,500 --> 00:09:05,916
a particle physicist.

281
00:09:05,916 --> 00:09:07,666
So what I do is to try to

282
00:09:07,666 --> 00:09:10,791
build detectors to see dark matter at the

283
00:09:10,791 --> 00:09:12,000
quantum mechanical level, at

284
00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,291
the particle level, but that's

285
00:09:14,291 --> 00:09:17,250
directly impactful on our theories of

286
00:09:17,250 --> 00:09:18,500
cosmology and astrophysics.

287
00:09:18,500 --> 00:09:20,708
So there's a deep and intimate

288
00:09:20,708 --> 00:09:23,291
connection between dark matter out there,

289
00:09:23,291 --> 00:09:25,416
so to speak, in space

290
00:09:25,416 --> 00:09:26,708
versus detecting it in particle

291
00:09:27,375 --> 00:09:29,250
detectors. But there's another level of

292
00:09:29,250 --> 00:09:30,083
that too, which is the

293
00:09:30,083 --> 00:09:32,000
type of dark matter detection

294
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:33,666
technologies I work on. They're designed

295
00:09:33,666 --> 00:09:34,875
to take something that's

296
00:09:34,875 --> 00:09:37,708
invisible, one atom being hit by

297
00:09:37,708 --> 00:09:39,875
a particle of dark matter and turning

298
00:09:39,875 --> 00:09:42,625
that into a macroscopic,

299
00:09:42,625 --> 00:09:45,000
detectable flash of light that the

300
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,333
instrument can then record. And so that's

301
00:09:47,333 --> 00:09:49,041
another link where we're taking the

302
00:09:49,041 --> 00:09:50,083
microscopic and taking

303
00:09:50,333 --> 00:09:54,666
it to the macroscopic realm. Is it

304
00:09:54,666 --> 00:09:56,416
microscopic or is it at a

305
00:09:56,416 --> 00:09:57,791
level where the quantum effects are

306
00:09:57,791 --> 00:10:00,166
applicable? Oh definitely, quantum

307
00:10:00,166 --> 00:10:02,666
effects are definitely applicable. It

308
00:10:02,666 --> 00:10:03,500
depends on the type of

309
00:10:03,500 --> 00:10:05,875
dark matter actually. We're actually not

310
00:10:05,875 --> 00:10:08,083
sure whether dark matter

311
00:10:08,083 --> 00:10:09,500
is what you would call more

312
00:10:09,500 --> 00:10:11,541
particle-like or more wave-like. That's

313
00:10:11,541 --> 00:10:13,458
kind of a misnomer because in quantum

314
00:10:13,458 --> 00:10:13,833
mechanics everything

315
00:10:14,125 --> 00:10:17,666
is a particle and a wave, right? So the

316
00:10:17,666 --> 00:10:19,166
thing is, we don't know,

317
00:10:19,166 --> 00:10:21,125
is dark matter really heavy?

318
00:10:21,125 --> 00:10:23,750
In which case it acts more like a

319
00:10:23,750 --> 00:10:25,666
particle, like a billiard ball on a pool

320
00:10:25,666 --> 00:10:27,666
table. Or is dark matter

321
00:10:27,666 --> 00:10:30,333
more wave-like? Does it act more like

322
00:10:30,333 --> 00:10:31,500
water or sound waves? Dark

323
00:10:31,500 --> 00:10:32,708
matter could be anywhere in

324
00:10:32,708 --> 00:10:35,416
between those possibilities or something

325
00:10:35,416 --> 00:10:37,916
else. And so the type of dark

326
00:10:37,916 --> 00:10:39,500
matter I focus on, different

327
00:10:39,500 --> 00:10:40,541
researchers have their different

328
00:10:40,541 --> 00:10:42,166
specialties, I'm looking for

329
00:10:42,166 --> 00:10:43,583
particle-like dark matter where the

330
00:10:44,166 --> 00:10:47,000
quantum effects are less important. What

331
00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,500
I mean by that is, in our

332
00:10:49,500 --> 00:10:51,250
detection technologies, it's

333
00:10:51,250 --> 00:10:53,708
almost like two microscopic billiard

334
00:10:53,708 --> 00:10:55,208
balls hitting each other. So

335
00:10:55,208 --> 00:10:56,958
we can for the most part, not

336
00:10:56,958 --> 00:10:58,208
entirely of course because we're stuck

337
00:10:58,208 --> 00:11:00,000
about atoms, we can for the most part

338
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,208
ignore quantum effects

339
00:11:01,208 --> 00:11:03,500
and pretend it's a classical system as if

340
00:11:03,500 --> 00:11:05,625
it was a pool table. But not

341
00:11:05,625 --> 00:11:06,750
all dark matter researchers

342
00:11:06,750 --> 00:11:09,375
do that. Some consider the possibility

343
00:11:09,375 --> 00:11:10,541
that dark matter acts more

344
00:11:10,541 --> 00:11:12,083
like waves, in which case it

345
00:11:12,375 --> 00:11:15,666
would have more quantum weirdness.

346
00:11:15,666 --> 00:11:18,500
Interesting. So how do you detect or

347
00:11:18,500 --> 00:11:19,500
potentially detect these

348
00:11:19,500 --> 00:11:21,000
objects? You said you are directly

349
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:22,333
related to that, so what does that

350
00:11:22,333 --> 00:11:23,625
process look like and how do you

351
00:11:23,625 --> 00:11:24,875
go about that right now or how are you

352
00:11:24,875 --> 00:11:26,750
trying to do that? So I work an

353
00:11:26,750 --> 00:11:28,125
experiment called LZ, which

354
00:11:28,125 --> 00:11:30,125
is short for lux zeppelin. It's a merger

355
00:11:30,125 --> 00:11:31,166
of two earlier

356
00:11:31,166 --> 00:11:33,250
experiments, lux and zeppelin, and the

357
00:11:33,250 --> 00:11:34,958
technology it uses is not the only one.

358
00:11:34,958 --> 00:11:36,208
This is only one example of

359
00:11:36,208 --> 00:11:37,375
a broad class of detectors

360
00:11:37,708 --> 00:11:39,708
called direct detectors. What direct

361
00:11:39,708 --> 00:11:41,875
detectors do is they'll have a

362
00:11:41,875 --> 00:11:44,875
giant tank of liquid or solid

363
00:11:44,875 --> 00:11:48,666
or maybe a gas, a giant target. And the

364
00:11:48,666 --> 00:11:51,250
idea is you look for dark

365
00:11:51,250 --> 00:11:54,500
matter to hit one of the nuclei

366
00:11:54,500 --> 00:11:56,625
inside of one of the atoms in your

367
00:11:56,625 --> 00:11:57,958
experiment. So this is a

368
00:11:57,958 --> 00:12:00,750
very broad class of experiments

369
00:12:00,750 --> 00:12:03,375
and different people around the world use

370
00:12:03,375 --> 00:12:04,583
different substances.

371
00:12:04,583 --> 00:12:06,416
So LZ uses liquid xenon,

372
00:12:06,708 --> 00:12:08,208
the reason why we use liquid xenon, it

373
00:12:08,208 --> 00:12:11,125
has several advantages. It's dense when

374
00:12:11,125 --> 00:12:12,291
it's liquefied, when

375
00:12:12,291 --> 00:12:15,625
it's cold, and so it can stop non-dark

376
00:12:15,625 --> 00:12:17,583
matter, other kinds of

377
00:12:17,583 --> 00:12:19,166
radiation, just other particles

378
00:12:19,166 --> 00:12:20,833
we know and love, just naturally

379
00:12:20,833 --> 00:12:22,458
occurring radiation. But the

380
00:12:22,458 --> 00:12:24,125
general idea for all direct

381
00:12:24,125 --> 00:12:26,416
detection experiments is dark matter

382
00:12:26,416 --> 00:12:27,958
comes and hits one of the

383
00:12:27,958 --> 00:12:29,541
nuclei inside one of the atoms

384
00:12:29,541 --> 00:12:32,416
in your target and then when that atom is

385
00:12:32,416 --> 00:12:33,750
moving, it has got extra

386
00:12:33,750 --> 00:12:35,500
energy now, it produces some kind

387
00:12:35,750 --> 00:12:38,875
of signal you can detect. Maybe it's

388
00:12:38,875 --> 00:12:40,125
electric, maybe it's charged,

389
00:12:40,125 --> 00:12:42,500
maybe it's light, maybe it's

390
00:12:42,500 --> 00:12:45,083
heat. And so you're looking for a signal

391
00:12:45,083 --> 00:12:46,500
so the different

392
00:12:46,500 --> 00:12:48,416
technologies that are used

393
00:12:48,416 --> 00:12:51,000
rely on some sort of macroscopic

394
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,375
measurable signal from that microscopic

395
00:12:53,375 --> 00:12:55,000
interaction of that first

396
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,375
atomic or nuclear recoil. So in the case

397
00:12:57,375 --> 00:12:59,166
of the technology I spend

398
00:12:59,166 --> 00:13:00,916
most of my time on liquid xenon,

399
00:13:00,916 --> 00:13:03,125
we have two signals, light and charge. We

400
00:13:03,125 --> 00:13:04,416
combine those signals

401
00:13:04,416 --> 00:13:05,166
because that gives us like

402
00:13:05,916 --> 00:13:08,166
position and energy reconstruction and

403
00:13:08,166 --> 00:13:10,791
information. Okay. Is there direct

404
00:13:10,791 --> 00:13:14,125
evidence of this dark matter

405
00:13:14,125 --> 00:13:17,000
interacting with the nucleus of atoms or

406
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,000
is that an assumption still?

407
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,041
That's an assumption and it's

408
00:13:21,041 --> 00:13:23,083
one that's required in order to move

409
00:13:23,083 --> 00:13:25,500
forward. So there's absolutely no proof

410
00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:26,666
or evidence that it's

411
00:13:26,666 --> 00:13:29,166
even possible. So all we know is that

412
00:13:29,166 --> 00:13:30,166
dark matter interacts

413
00:13:30,166 --> 00:13:32,250
gravitationally. So in all the direct

414
00:13:32,708 --> 00:13:35,666
detection experiments, the assumption is

415
00:13:35,666 --> 00:13:36,416
always that there's

416
00:13:36,416 --> 00:13:37,916
something extra, there's some sort

417
00:13:37,916 --> 00:13:41,833
of weak, very rare interaction other than

418
00:13:41,833 --> 00:13:43,833
gravity that allows the dark

419
00:13:43,833 --> 00:13:45,791
matter in a sense to talk to

420
00:13:45,791 --> 00:13:49,291
a nucleus and kick it and give it some

421
00:13:49,291 --> 00:13:51,541
measurable energy. That is absolutely an

422
00:13:51,541 --> 00:13:52,125
assumption. It could

423
00:13:52,125 --> 00:13:54,875
be wrong but without that assumption then

424
00:13:54,875 --> 00:13:55,916
we wouldn't even then

425
00:13:55,916 --> 00:13:57,041
there's no point in even trying

426
00:13:57,375 --> 00:13:59,666
to detect dark matter. But the reason why

427
00:13:59,666 --> 00:14:00,833
it's a decent assumption

428
00:14:00,833 --> 00:14:03,208
is because we have a lot of

429
00:14:03,208 --> 00:14:06,083
models like a supersymmetry, a

430
00:14:06,083 --> 00:14:08,291
collusicline extra dimensions and all

431
00:14:08,291 --> 00:14:10,916
these other ideas out there

432
00:14:10,916 --> 00:14:15,208
that all predict that there could be a

433
00:14:15,208 --> 00:14:17,208
particle that might explain

434
00:14:17,208 --> 00:14:18,833
dark matter, some sort of new

435
00:14:18,833 --> 00:14:20,791
particle is predicted by all these

436
00:14:20,791 --> 00:14:22,958
different theories. And in

437
00:14:22,958 --> 00:14:24,000
almost every case they will

438
00:14:24,416 --> 00:14:26,500
have interactions other than

439
00:14:26,500 --> 00:14:28,500
gravitational. And so that's why that's

440
00:14:28,500 --> 00:14:30,416
how we justify that assumption

441
00:14:30,416 --> 00:14:32,125
but it is still an assumption. It could

442
00:14:32,125 --> 00:14:33,250
be dark matter only

443
00:14:33,250 --> 00:14:34,583
interacts gravitationally

444
00:14:34,583 --> 00:14:37,458
in which case we may never be able to

445
00:14:37,458 --> 00:14:38,916
detect it directly and the

446
00:14:38,916 --> 00:14:40,791
astronomical evidence may be all

447
00:14:40,791 --> 00:14:42,875
that humanity ever gets for it which

448
00:14:42,875 --> 00:14:43,833
would be very sad because

449
00:14:43,833 --> 00:14:45,166
that would be very hard to

450
00:14:45,166 --> 00:14:47,041
to figure out what it is if it only

451
00:14:47,041 --> 00:14:49,333
interacts through gravity.

452
00:14:49,333 --> 00:14:52,000
Interesting. So I don't want to

453
00:14:52,333 --> 00:14:55,083
jump into UAP quite yet but I feel like

454
00:14:55,083 --> 00:14:56,625
there's a lot of analogies

455
00:14:56,625 --> 00:14:59,375
that we could talk about.

456
00:14:59,375 --> 00:15:01,875
Maybe just for a quick aside before we

457
00:15:01,875 --> 00:15:04,875
perhaps get back to physics in a moment,

458
00:15:04,875 --> 00:15:07,625
you were doing work on detecting UAP,

459
00:15:07,625 --> 00:15:09,666
unidentified anomalous phenomenon. Is

460
00:15:09,666 --> 00:15:10,583
that the definition you

461
00:15:10,583 --> 00:15:13,375
use? Oh, everyone uses a different one.

462
00:15:13,375 --> 00:15:15,250
No use, what is it?

463
00:15:15,250 --> 00:15:18,083
Unidentified aerial phenomenon or

464
00:15:18,791 --> 00:15:20,583
aerospace. Sometimes aerial becomes

465
00:15:20,583 --> 00:15:23,625
aerospace and sometimes yeah unidentified

466
00:15:23,625 --> 00:15:25,375
becomes unclassified.

467
00:15:25,375 --> 00:15:27,250
Right, we keep changing what the letters

468
00:15:27,250 --> 00:15:28,000
mean, we keep changing

469
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:29,375
what the letters are even.

470
00:15:29,375 --> 00:15:30,833
So let's talk about how you got involved

471
00:15:30,833 --> 00:15:33,000
in that topic. When did that begin?

472
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,500
So that began not too long ago actually

473
00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:38,000
maybe about five years

474
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:38,708
ago something like that,

475
00:15:38,708 --> 00:15:40,500
you know time warps during the pandemic,

476
00:15:40,500 --> 00:15:41,583
it's hard to remember but it was before

477
00:15:42,375 --> 00:15:44,958
it was before the pandemic started and it

478
00:15:44,958 --> 00:15:47,250
was all actually it was

479
00:15:47,250 --> 00:15:48,916
primarily due to my colleague

480
00:15:48,916 --> 00:15:50,583
Professor Kevin Knuth who's also at the

481
00:15:50,583 --> 00:15:52,208
University of Albany, he's

482
00:15:52,208 --> 00:15:54,041
been big on this for years and

483
00:15:54,041 --> 00:15:56,208
he's the one that roped me in and sort of

484
00:15:56,208 --> 00:15:58,583
convinced me as an adult but

485
00:15:58,583 --> 00:15:59,958
the seeds were sort of there

486
00:15:59,958 --> 00:16:02,833
because as a child I watched like for

487
00:16:02,833 --> 00:16:05,208
example when I was a kid you know this

488
00:16:05,208 --> 00:16:05,958
totally scared the crap

489
00:16:05,958 --> 00:16:08,458
out of me I watched the Rendlesham and

490
00:16:08,458 --> 00:16:09,791
Forest episode for example

491
00:16:09,791 --> 00:16:10,791
of Unsolved Mysteries with

492
00:16:11,250 --> 00:16:14,208
Robert Stack and was glowing red orb and

493
00:16:14,208 --> 00:16:16,708
stuff so I would watch the

494
00:16:16,708 --> 00:16:20,000
the UFO stuff as a kid but

495
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,750
probably most important I watched Star

496
00:16:22,750 --> 00:16:24,625
Trek the Next Generation and so that

497
00:16:24,625 --> 00:16:27,041
really opened my mind

498
00:16:27,041 --> 00:16:29,875
to possibilities but more from like a

499
00:16:29,875 --> 00:16:31,416
science fiction perspective

500
00:16:31,416 --> 00:16:32,833
versus a fantasy perspective

501
00:16:32,833 --> 00:16:34,083
where there's this subtle difference you

502
00:16:34,083 --> 00:16:36,166
know sort of like the hard science

503
00:16:36,166 --> 00:16:36,875
fiction nuts and bolts

504
00:16:38,166 --> 00:16:39,583
and so that's sort of those are sort of

505
00:16:39,583 --> 00:16:42,125
like the the threads and and the

506
00:16:42,125 --> 00:16:43,458
motivations it was really

507
00:16:43,458 --> 00:16:45,041
though the watershed moment a lot of

508
00:16:45,041 --> 00:16:46,000
people will probably say

509
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,000
the same answer but it is true

510
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,541
was the New York Times article of a few

511
00:16:51,541 --> 00:16:52,625
years ago about the you

512
00:16:52,625 --> 00:16:54,500
know about A-Tip and the

513
00:16:54,500 --> 00:16:57,125
and you know by Leslie Kane and Ralph

514
00:16:57,125 --> 00:16:58,083
Blumenthal it was really

515
00:16:58,083 --> 00:17:00,625
that kind of changed the game

516
00:17:00,625 --> 00:17:02,166
for not just me of course for so many

517
00:17:02,166 --> 00:17:02,833
people it's like wow

518
00:17:02,833 --> 00:17:04,208
this is the New York Times

519
00:17:04,500 --> 00:17:06,791
it's not you know supermarket tabloid

520
00:17:06,791 --> 00:17:08,416
from the checkout aisle

521
00:17:08,416 --> 00:17:10,166
and that really changed

522
00:17:10,166 --> 00:17:14,250
the conversation and it made it more okay

523
00:17:14,250 --> 00:17:16,833
to to study UAP as a

524
00:17:16,833 --> 00:17:18,625
scientist. How were you approached

525
00:17:18,625 --> 00:17:20,208
you know what was the how were you

526
00:17:20,208 --> 00:17:21,208
convinced if you will what

527
00:17:21,208 --> 00:17:22,750
was the logic that was used to

528
00:17:22,750 --> 00:17:24,083
convince you and what were you convinced

529
00:17:24,083 --> 00:17:24,958
of that there's something

530
00:17:24,958 --> 00:17:26,833
there that's worth looking into?

531
00:17:26,833 --> 00:17:28,958
Yeah so that's a good question so what I

532
00:17:28,958 --> 00:17:31,875
was how what my colleague

533
00:17:31,875 --> 00:17:33,041
Kevin was able to convince me of

534
00:17:34,083 --> 00:17:36,833
was anomalous velocities in accelerations

535
00:17:36,833 --> 00:17:39,791
in particularly in the Nimitz encounter

536
00:17:39,791 --> 00:17:42,291
but in other encounters other famous

537
00:17:42,291 --> 00:17:45,125
cases as well like the Japanese airline

538
00:17:45,125 --> 00:17:45,875
incident things like

539
00:17:45,875 --> 00:17:48,750
that and and so he was able to by looking

540
00:17:48,750 --> 00:17:51,125
at actual numbers and

541
00:17:51,125 --> 00:17:54,250
data be able to show evidence

542
00:17:54,250 --> 00:17:56,000
that he could show me he could show other

543
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:57,291
scientific colleagues

544
00:17:57,291 --> 00:17:58,583
of there being anomalous

545
00:17:58,958 --> 00:18:02,208
velocities and accelerations and that's

546
00:18:02,208 --> 00:18:04,416
what really began to

547
00:18:04,416 --> 00:18:05,458
convince me that there was

548
00:18:05,458 --> 00:18:08,166
something worth worth looking at it does

549
00:18:08,166 --> 00:18:09,125
still doesn't prove it's

550
00:18:09,125 --> 00:18:10,458
alien spacecraft because you

551
00:18:10,458 --> 00:18:13,333
could have some naturally occurring

552
00:18:13,333 --> 00:18:15,000
phenomenon you know something in

553
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:16,333
atmospheric physics but what

554
00:18:16,333 --> 00:18:18,958
it does to me prove is that there's

555
00:18:18,958 --> 00:18:20,250
something worth studying and

556
00:18:20,250 --> 00:18:21,583
not ignoring there that you

557
00:18:21,583 --> 00:18:23,666
should that's worth diving into so it's

558
00:18:23,666 --> 00:18:25,041
really looking at numbers of

559
00:18:25,041 --> 00:18:26,708
velocities and accelerations

560
00:18:27,125 --> 00:18:29,041
from reliable sources you know from like

561
00:18:29,041 --> 00:18:31,375
the the US Navy videos are

562
00:18:31,375 --> 00:18:34,708
what really convinced me but

563
00:18:34,708 --> 00:18:37,000
like I said the seed was was already

564
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:38,458
planted from from childhood

565
00:18:38,458 --> 00:18:40,000
from things like Star Trek and

566
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,541
Unsolved Mysteries and stuff so I

567
00:18:42,541 --> 00:18:44,166
probably didn't need that much

568
00:18:44,166 --> 00:18:46,958
convincing. I was a I was a next

569
00:18:46,958 --> 00:18:49,500
generation fan myself in fact there's a I

570
00:18:49,500 --> 00:18:51,375
think a video of my

571
00:18:51,375 --> 00:18:52,541
one-year-old daughter screaming at the

572
00:18:53,041 --> 00:18:56,541
the intro to Star Trek and excitement

573
00:18:56,541 --> 00:18:58,291
I've got a video of my

574
00:18:58,291 --> 00:19:00,083
daughter Ivy doing the same thing

575
00:19:00,083 --> 00:19:03,416
it used to be that when she was upset she

576
00:19:03,416 --> 00:19:05,500
would be calmed by the

577
00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:07,041
Star Trek the next generation

578
00:19:07,041 --> 00:19:09,625
theme song and credits playing so I've

579
00:19:09,625 --> 00:19:11,208
heard that you've also tried

580
00:19:11,208 --> 00:19:13,041
to bring in some of that pop

581
00:19:13,041 --> 00:19:15,125
culture whether it be Star Trek or other

582
00:19:15,125 --> 00:19:17,833
things into some of your

583
00:19:17,833 --> 00:19:18,333
communication style when it

584
00:19:18,625 --> 00:19:20,541
comes to physics that's right can you

585
00:19:20,541 --> 00:19:22,750
give an example of that sure

586
00:19:22,750 --> 00:19:24,333
so when I would teach physics

587
00:19:24,333 --> 00:19:26,041
three which was modern physics that's

588
00:19:26,041 --> 00:19:28,125
like a bit of relativity and a bit of

589
00:19:28,125 --> 00:19:29,416
quantum as well mixed

590
00:19:29,416 --> 00:19:31,375
mixed together and and some

591
00:19:31,375 --> 00:19:33,708
thermodynamics in that class which I've

592
00:19:33,708 --> 00:19:35,416
taught four or five times now

593
00:19:35,416 --> 00:19:38,541
in that particular class I would um I

594
00:19:38,541 --> 00:19:41,583
often based a lot the whole almost all

595
00:19:41,583 --> 00:19:42,625
the homework questions

596
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:47,458
were either Star Trek or Star Wars or

597
00:19:47,458 --> 00:19:49,250
Doctor Who or something else

598
00:19:49,250 --> 00:19:51,333
like I had a question about

599
00:19:51,333 --> 00:19:54,000
Raoul like the the red star that of

600
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:55,916
Superman's you know home star

601
00:19:55,916 --> 00:19:57,500
system they just could I would

602
00:19:57,500 --> 00:19:59,250
throw in question I would I would write

603
00:19:59,250 --> 00:20:00,583
almost all of my homework

604
00:20:00,583 --> 00:20:02,083
questions like that so I think

605
00:20:02,083 --> 00:20:04,458
that's a good example and I'll do

606
00:20:04,458 --> 00:20:07,791
analogies from from uh Star Trek and

607
00:20:07,791 --> 00:20:08,333
maybe you know skeptical

608
00:20:08,916 --> 00:20:11,000
scientists will get uh uber skeptical

609
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:12,583
scientists get get me get

610
00:20:12,583 --> 00:20:13,708
angry at me for doing that but I

611
00:20:13,708 --> 00:20:15,875
think there's no harm in using something

612
00:20:15,875 --> 00:20:17,166
even that's fictional to

613
00:20:17,166 --> 00:20:19,000
get people interested and

614
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,583
excited in doing real science it does

615
00:20:21,583 --> 00:20:23,583
science fiction seems to

616
00:20:23,583 --> 00:20:25,000
drive our motivation towards

617
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:26,750
certain ends to some degree whether

618
00:20:26,750 --> 00:20:28,000
they're feasible or not it

619
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:29,375
doesn't really matter if we

620
00:20:29,375 --> 00:20:31,000
want it to be and we believe in it we are

621
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:31,916
going to push in that

622
00:20:31,916 --> 00:20:32,500
direction and we're going to get a

623
00:20:32,791 --> 00:20:35,833
little bit closer to some degree um

624
00:20:35,833 --> 00:20:38,958
that's very true so you got

625
00:20:38,958 --> 00:20:40,750
involved in UAP uh through a

626
00:20:40,750 --> 00:20:42,833
colleague what does that look like how

627
00:20:42,833 --> 00:20:43,750
are you involved in it at

628
00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:45,166
least at that point were you

629
00:20:45,166 --> 00:20:47,166
asked to provide some specialty based off

630
00:20:47,166 --> 00:20:49,250
of your perhaps um I don't

631
00:20:49,250 --> 00:20:50,375
want to call experimental

632
00:20:50,375 --> 00:20:51,666
background is that correct that is

633
00:20:51,666 --> 00:20:54,250
correct yeah yeah so yeah when many

634
00:20:54,250 --> 00:20:55,500
people hear that I'm a

635
00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:57,458
physicist they immediately say oh so

636
00:20:57,458 --> 00:20:58,708
you're a theoretical

637
00:20:58,708 --> 00:20:59,500
physicist and I say no I'm an

638
00:21:00,250 --> 00:21:01,875
experimental physicist and then I get

639
00:21:01,875 --> 00:21:03,833
blank stares you know like a cocktail

640
00:21:03,833 --> 00:21:05,500
party those are very

641
00:21:05,500 --> 00:21:07,250
different things so an experimental

642
00:21:07,250 --> 00:21:10,458
physicist is more like an engineer

643
00:21:10,458 --> 00:21:11,875
whereas a theoretical

644
00:21:11,875 --> 00:21:13,875
physicist is more like a mathematician

645
00:21:13,875 --> 00:21:15,208
that's a very imperfect

646
00:21:15,208 --> 00:21:15,958
analogy because they're their

647
00:21:15,958 --> 00:21:18,583
own things of course but basically I

648
00:21:18,583 --> 00:21:20,250
build things with my hands I

649
00:21:20,250 --> 00:21:22,791
don't just I will do things on

650
00:21:22,791 --> 00:21:24,208
computer computer simulation things like

651
00:21:24,208 --> 00:21:25,916
that so I also use a pencil and

652
00:21:25,916 --> 00:21:26,625
calculator like a theoretical

653
00:21:27,208 --> 00:21:29,625
physicist but I'm but I focus on building

654
00:21:29,625 --> 00:21:31,208
things and so actually you

655
00:21:31,208 --> 00:21:32,250
asked a really good question

656
00:21:32,250 --> 00:21:34,625
about well what what expertise did I

657
00:21:34,625 --> 00:21:38,000
bring to uh UAP when my colleague

658
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:39,333
professor Knuth invited me

659
00:21:39,333 --> 00:21:42,375
to to join him in that grand adventure

660
00:21:42,375 --> 00:21:43,791
and the expertise that I

661
00:21:43,791 --> 00:21:45,291
bring is radiation detection

662
00:21:45,291 --> 00:21:48,083
because dark matter detection is just one

663
00:21:48,083 --> 00:21:49,416
step away from just

664
00:21:49,416 --> 00:21:50,875
detection of any particles in

665
00:21:50,875 --> 00:21:54,250
general and the reason is is because when

666
00:21:54,250 --> 00:21:55,583
you're looking for a new

667
00:21:55,583 --> 00:21:56,250
particle like dark matter and

668
00:21:56,500 --> 00:21:59,000
this applies even to you know particle

669
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,500
colliders like the LHC in

670
00:22:00,500 --> 00:22:02,541
Switzerland you need to know what

671
00:22:02,541 --> 00:22:04,708
particles that already we already

672
00:22:04,708 --> 00:22:06,500
understand what do they look like you

673
00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:07,500
cannot claim to discover

674
00:22:07,500 --> 00:22:09,000
something new unless you've addressed all

675
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,791
the existing possibilities

676
00:22:10,791 --> 00:22:11,791
and the reason why that's

677
00:22:11,791 --> 00:22:16,000
connected to UAP is because of all of the

678
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,375
claims of radiation

679
00:22:18,375 --> 00:22:19,708
there's the famous you know cash

680
00:22:19,708 --> 00:22:22,458
landrum case in Texas it has just one

681
00:22:22,458 --> 00:22:23,291
example of many there's

682
00:22:23,291 --> 00:22:24,416
another example in France one in

683
00:22:24,875 --> 00:22:26,833
Canada there's plenty of historical

684
00:22:26,833 --> 00:22:30,458
examples of claims of UAP producing

685
00:22:30,458 --> 00:22:32,458
radiation and to me that's

686
00:22:32,458 --> 00:22:34,666
really interesting because you can fake

687
00:22:34,666 --> 00:22:36,541
or hoax a video it's really

688
00:22:36,541 --> 00:22:38,500
hard to fake a radiation signal

689
00:22:38,500 --> 00:22:40,500
I'm not saying it's impossible but like

690
00:22:40,500 --> 00:22:43,083
it's one thing to use CGI and

691
00:22:43,083 --> 00:22:44,708
fake people with a UFO picture

692
00:22:44,708 --> 00:22:48,000
but radiation screams to me real

693
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,166
phenomenon very difficult to hoax and

694
00:22:50,166 --> 00:22:50,708
again that doesn't prove it's

695
00:22:51,125 --> 00:22:53,041
alien spacecraft but it proves something

696
00:22:53,041 --> 00:22:54,583
weird and interesting and

697
00:22:54,583 --> 00:22:55,916
so that's the angle where I

698
00:22:55,916 --> 00:22:58,958
come in is my expertise is in particle

699
00:22:58,958 --> 00:23:00,833
detection that's very

700
00:23:00,833 --> 00:23:02,250
interesting there's a bit of analogy

701
00:23:02,250 --> 00:23:04,166
there between looking for a new particle

702
00:23:04,166 --> 00:23:05,458
that you've hypothesized

703
00:23:05,458 --> 00:23:10,375
about you may you have to

704
00:23:10,375 --> 00:23:12,666
account for all the particles and and

705
00:23:12,666 --> 00:23:13,541
things that you're expecting

706
00:23:13,541 --> 00:23:14,916
to see and then work your way

707
00:23:14,916 --> 00:23:16,708
backwards to see what anomalous data

708
00:23:16,708 --> 00:23:18,416
might exist exactly remove

709
00:23:18,416 --> 00:23:20,000
all that it's a very similar

710
00:23:20,416 --> 00:23:24,500
problem to UAP that's right so but the

711
00:23:24,500 --> 00:23:25,458
the fortunate thing when

712
00:23:25,458 --> 00:23:26,916
we're looking for dark matter

713
00:23:26,916 --> 00:23:29,625
is we have a short list of possibilities

714
00:23:29,625 --> 00:23:30,916
all the different particles

715
00:23:30,916 --> 00:23:32,625
that we've already discovered

716
00:23:32,625 --> 00:23:35,000
and we know how they behave it's always

717
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:35,958
very challenging when

718
00:23:35,958 --> 00:23:37,666
you're doing UAP research

719
00:23:37,666 --> 00:23:39,375
because you can prove something's not a

720
00:23:39,375 --> 00:23:41,708
bird a plane a drone a

721
00:23:41,708 --> 00:23:43,250
helicopter and but what about

722
00:23:43,250 --> 00:23:45,333
that one thing you forgot on your list ah

723
00:23:45,333 --> 00:23:46,625
it's a dragonfly or

724
00:23:46,625 --> 00:23:47,166
something you know what I mean like

725
00:23:47,416 --> 00:23:50,875
that's it's really hard when the list of

726
00:23:50,875 --> 00:23:51,708
possibilities is so

727
00:23:51,708 --> 00:23:53,708
long so it's a good analogy

728
00:23:53,708 --> 00:23:56,833
but with UAP you have such a long list

729
00:23:56,833 --> 00:23:58,083
because you've got animals

730
00:23:58,083 --> 00:24:00,166
you've got human-made craft

731
00:24:00,166 --> 00:24:02,791
of all different varieties that it makes

732
00:24:02,791 --> 00:24:04,750
it just exacerbates the

733
00:24:04,750 --> 00:24:06,583
problem because you have to show

734
00:24:06,583 --> 00:24:09,208
it's when you want to claim something is

735
00:24:09,208 --> 00:24:11,041
an anomaly or anomalous

736
00:24:11,041 --> 00:24:12,000
you have to say it's not

737
00:24:12,416 --> 00:24:14,916
this this this this and the the list is

738
00:24:14,916 --> 00:24:16,375
even longer than when we

739
00:24:16,375 --> 00:24:17,875
say something is dark matter

740
00:24:17,875 --> 00:24:21,375
it's not an alpha beta neutron gamma muon

741
00:24:21,375 --> 00:24:23,166
not that many things not

742
00:24:23,166 --> 00:24:24,625
that many other kinds of

743
00:24:24,625 --> 00:24:26,708
they're not that many kinds of particles

744
00:24:26,708 --> 00:24:27,625
I mean there are plenty of

745
00:24:27,625 --> 00:24:28,916
subatomic particles but not

746
00:24:28,916 --> 00:24:31,458
that many that would interact on a

747
00:24:31,458 --> 00:24:33,833
regular basis with a detector of the

748
00:24:33,833 --> 00:24:35,500
kinds I use so too many

749
00:24:36,083 --> 00:24:38,541
potential variables compared to particle

750
00:24:38,541 --> 00:24:41,166
physics yeah the search

751
00:24:41,166 --> 00:24:44,750
space is is much higher as well

752
00:24:44,750 --> 00:24:47,833
so how do you look for radiation then and

753
00:24:47,833 --> 00:24:48,875
when we say radiation I

754
00:24:48,875 --> 00:24:49,958
think the layman would think of

755
00:24:49,958 --> 00:24:52,625
your normal uranium type radiation that

756
00:24:52,625 --> 00:24:53,541
can physically harm a

757
00:24:53,541 --> 00:24:54,500
person is that what you're

758
00:24:54,500 --> 00:24:57,833
referring to um yes and no so but first

759
00:24:57,833 --> 00:24:59,416
let me see your question is

760
00:24:59,416 --> 00:25:00,500
about for the UAP research is

761
00:25:00,708 --> 00:25:03,000
that right correct okay so yeah in that

762
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,000
case we're not looking for um a new

763
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:06,791
particle because then we

764
00:25:06,791 --> 00:25:09,291
will be doing two things at the same time

765
00:25:09,291 --> 00:25:10,333
so we're look what we're

766
00:25:10,333 --> 00:25:11,750
looking for in that case

767
00:25:11,750 --> 00:25:15,458
are those natural kinds of radiation you

768
00:25:15,458 --> 00:25:16,875
mentioned but something

769
00:25:16,875 --> 00:25:18,958
extra instead of an extra new

770
00:25:18,958 --> 00:25:20,791
particle the goal with radiation

771
00:25:20,791 --> 00:25:23,250
detection for UAP research is a strange

772
00:25:23,250 --> 00:25:24,916
blip that is statistically

773
00:25:25,666 --> 00:25:28,416
anomalous above natural background so you

774
00:25:28,416 --> 00:25:29,625
you're talking about

775
00:25:29,625 --> 00:25:31,791
uranium and those things now most

776
00:25:31,791 --> 00:25:33,208
radiation most people don't know this is

777
00:25:33,208 --> 00:25:35,458
actually not very harmful

778
00:25:35,458 --> 00:25:37,708
right now in this room we are

779
00:25:37,708 --> 00:25:40,250
constantly bombarded not just by cosmic

780
00:25:40,250 --> 00:25:42,125
radiation but even your body is

781
00:25:42,125 --> 00:25:43,750
radioactive in fact the dark

782
00:25:43,750 --> 00:25:46,000
matter detectors I work on are less

783
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:47,291
radioactive than this table or

784
00:25:47,291 --> 00:25:49,000
you and me and that's because

785
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,583
in order to find something new you got to

786
00:25:50,583 --> 00:25:51,541
get the background you

787
00:25:51,541 --> 00:25:53,833
know radiation down so when I

788
00:25:54,166 --> 00:25:58,083
talk about the the radiation both for

789
00:25:58,083 --> 00:25:59,208
what we need to eliminate

790
00:25:59,208 --> 00:26:00,541
for our dark matter research

791
00:26:00,541 --> 00:26:02,500
and also what are we looking for in terms

792
00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:04,750
of UAP research we're looking for

793
00:26:04,750 --> 00:26:06,083
something extra above

794
00:26:06,083 --> 00:26:07,833
normal background radiation so the most

795
00:26:07,833 --> 00:26:08,958
common types of radiation

796
00:26:08,958 --> 00:26:11,750
are alpha beta gamma neutron

797
00:26:11,750 --> 00:26:13,833
muon alphas and betas they don't go very

798
00:26:13,833 --> 00:26:15,416
far they'll go like a

799
00:26:15,416 --> 00:26:17,541
few millimeters even in air

800
00:26:17,541 --> 00:26:19,791
so that's kind of useless if you're

801
00:26:19,791 --> 00:26:21,208
trying to remote detect

802
00:26:21,208 --> 00:26:23,208
something that's super radioactive

803
00:26:23,625 --> 00:26:25,791
far far my many miles away in the air so

804
00:26:25,791 --> 00:26:26,791
that's really not the

805
00:26:26,791 --> 00:26:29,000
focus so the focus is really

806
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,375
other things mostly neutrons and gamma

807
00:26:31,375 --> 00:26:34,500
rays so um which made the

808
00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:35,750
incredible okay if I'm not

809
00:26:35,750 --> 00:26:37,625
mistaken but those are the kinds of

810
00:26:37,625 --> 00:26:40,125
particles that can travel long distances

811
00:26:40,125 --> 00:26:42,083
and the idea is again

812
00:26:42,083 --> 00:26:45,166
not to see them period because that's not

813
00:26:45,166 --> 00:26:46,541
anomalous because they're

814
00:26:46,541 --> 00:26:47,833
bombarding us constantly from the

815
00:26:48,250 --> 00:26:50,666
sun from this from other sources in our

816
00:26:50,666 --> 00:26:53,000
galaxy from distant distant stars

817
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,875
supernovas so the goal

818
00:26:54,875 --> 00:26:57,083
there with with UAP and it's a very

819
00:26:57,083 --> 00:27:00,875
challenging one is to see a blip above

820
00:27:00,875 --> 00:27:01,958
normal background and

821
00:27:01,958 --> 00:27:03,458
the reason why that's challenging you

822
00:27:03,458 --> 00:27:05,500
have to be so careful because

823
00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:07,000
if you've got a million data

824
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,333
points for example don't be surprised if

825
00:27:09,333 --> 00:27:10,333
you've got a one in a

826
00:27:10,333 --> 00:27:11,500
million miracle in it and you do

827
00:27:11,791 --> 00:27:15,166
have a blip and so the idea is to take

828
00:27:15,166 --> 00:27:16,208
something traditional for

829
00:27:16,208 --> 00:27:18,375
UAPs you know cameras and have a

830
00:27:18,375 --> 00:27:21,250
blip and the radiation detection at the

831
00:27:21,250 --> 00:27:23,833
same time you've got a weird image on

832
00:27:23,833 --> 00:27:25,416
FLIR or on an ordinary

833
00:27:25,416 --> 00:27:28,250
camera so really the focus of the UAP

834
00:27:28,250 --> 00:27:29,958
research I've been doing um

835
00:27:29,958 --> 00:27:32,708
with UAPX is to do what's called

836
00:27:32,708 --> 00:27:35,500
in science a coincidence measurement it

837
00:27:35,500 --> 00:27:36,708
doesn't mean coincidence like

838
00:27:36,708 --> 00:27:38,166
is used in stand-up parlance

839
00:27:38,416 --> 00:27:40,416
like that's a coincidence no it means

840
00:27:40,416 --> 00:27:42,166
like something's not a

841
00:27:42,166 --> 00:27:43,791
coincidence it's too much of a

842
00:27:43,791 --> 00:27:45,875
it's too much it's too much of a

843
00:27:45,875 --> 00:27:47,125
statistical anomaly to be a coincidence

844
00:27:47,125 --> 00:27:48,708
so what we're looking for

845
00:27:48,708 --> 00:27:52,458
are multiple sensors all saying something

846
00:27:52,458 --> 00:27:54,083
weird is happening within a

847
00:27:54,083 --> 00:27:56,875
very very small time frame

848
00:27:56,875 --> 00:27:59,083
so what other sensors is UAPX using and

849
00:27:59,083 --> 00:28:00,041
now you know broaden it

850
00:28:00,041 --> 00:28:01,833
out a little bit to what the

851
00:28:01,833 --> 00:28:03,583
organization as a goal is trying to

852
00:28:03,583 --> 00:28:05,333
accomplish yes so the the

853
00:28:05,333 --> 00:28:07,291
goal of of UAPX is to figure out

854
00:28:08,166 --> 00:28:10,250
very you know very simply what UAP are

855
00:28:10,250 --> 00:28:12,791
and that's a very ambitious goal

856
00:28:12,791 --> 00:28:13,916
especially because we might

857
00:28:13,916 --> 00:28:15,750
not be thinking of one thing right it

858
00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:17,625
might be phenomena

859
00:28:17,625 --> 00:28:19,791
plural instead of a phenomenon

860
00:28:19,791 --> 00:28:22,250
but really want to figure out what is

861
00:28:22,250 --> 00:28:23,500
going on are we talking

862
00:28:23,500 --> 00:28:25,875
natural phenomena are we talking

863
00:28:25,875 --> 00:28:29,583
advanced uh a craft figure it out and get

864
00:28:29,583 --> 00:28:31,958
data get data of our own

865
00:28:31,958 --> 00:28:33,750
that is not classified that

866
00:28:34,166 --> 00:28:35,958
doesn't belong to the US government or

867
00:28:35,958 --> 00:28:37,625
any government but is

868
00:28:37,625 --> 00:28:39,500
open data that we can then

869
00:28:39,500 --> 00:28:42,916
publish in scientific publications which

870
00:28:42,916 --> 00:28:44,916
then not just other scientists but

871
00:28:44,916 --> 00:28:46,333
literally anyone can

872
00:28:46,333 --> 00:28:49,250
read and we want to do that with sensors

873
00:28:49,250 --> 00:28:51,083
so you ask also what sensors so that's

874
00:28:51,083 --> 00:28:52,333
our goal the sensors

875
00:28:52,333 --> 00:28:56,916
we use we we use to reach that goal are

876
00:28:56,916 --> 00:28:58,625
cameras of different types

877
00:28:58,625 --> 00:28:59,833
visible light infrared made

878
00:29:00,208 --> 00:29:03,000
very famous of course by the go fast and

879
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,208
gimbal videos but more than

880
00:29:05,208 --> 00:29:07,291
just cameras but the radiation

881
00:29:07,291 --> 00:29:09,416
detection i'd discuss so you take the

882
00:29:09,416 --> 00:29:11,791
cameras take radiation detection and we

883
00:29:11,791 --> 00:29:13,458
want to keep adding to

884
00:29:13,458 --> 00:29:16,583
that we want to add magnetometers there

885
00:29:16,583 --> 00:29:18,291
have been so many claims

886
00:29:18,291 --> 00:29:21,333
going back decades of strange

887
00:29:21,333 --> 00:29:23,250
electromagnetic effects due to UAP that's

888
00:29:23,250 --> 00:29:25,083
testable that's testable

889
00:29:25,083 --> 00:29:26,083
those people we laugh at those

890
00:29:26,583 --> 00:29:28,375
stories and people think they're crazy

891
00:29:28,375 --> 00:29:30,208
but those are testable

892
00:29:30,208 --> 00:29:32,083
hypotheses we can we can do add

893
00:29:32,083 --> 00:29:34,708
trifield meters magnetometers so we

894
00:29:34,708 --> 00:29:36,958
started with cameras both visible and

895
00:29:36,958 --> 00:29:38,541
infrared and we also had

896
00:29:38,541 --> 00:29:41,375
radiation detection we want to expand to

897
00:29:41,375 --> 00:29:42,500
electromagnetic field

898
00:29:42,500 --> 00:29:44,583
detection and and and move

899
00:29:44,583 --> 00:29:46,166
on from there we also want to do

900
00:29:46,166 --> 00:29:48,250
ultraviolet because what if there are

901
00:29:48,250 --> 00:29:49,791
objects that are similarly to

902
00:29:49,791 --> 00:29:51,333
what happened with infrared you know

903
00:29:51,333 --> 00:29:52,541
sometimes there are strange objects that

904
00:29:52,541 --> 00:29:53,375
are visible infrared

905
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,666
and not visible or vice versa what about

906
00:29:56,666 --> 00:29:57,500
ultraviolet you know the

907
00:29:57,500 --> 00:29:58,750
other end of the spectrum

908
00:29:58,750 --> 00:30:01,500
so we want to add more to the spectrum of

909
00:30:01,500 --> 00:30:02,666
light that humans can't

910
00:30:02,666 --> 00:30:04,791
see but our machines can but

911
00:30:04,791 --> 00:30:07,291
also want to add the complementary

912
00:30:07,291 --> 00:30:09,500
sensors that have nothing to do with with

913
00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:10,958
light that are things

914
00:30:10,958 --> 00:30:13,083
like or are connected but aren't you know

915
00:30:13,083 --> 00:30:14,041
visible light or close to

916
00:30:14,041 --> 00:30:14,708
things like electromagnetic

917
00:30:15,375 --> 00:30:18,916
field detection and and the and the and

918
00:30:18,916 --> 00:30:22,291
the the the other sensors like

919
00:30:22,291 --> 00:30:23,916
accelerometers as well for

920
00:30:23,916 --> 00:30:26,375
like whether is there some you know

921
00:30:26,375 --> 00:30:27,916
strange vibration sound we

922
00:30:27,916 --> 00:30:29,416
want to add sound sensors as

923
00:30:29,416 --> 00:30:31,625
well and so many groups are doing this

924
00:30:31,625 --> 00:30:34,041
now UAPX was one of the

925
00:30:34,041 --> 00:30:35,916
first but now it's really taking

926
00:30:35,916 --> 00:30:38,833
off really taking off you got um aviloben

927
00:30:38,833 --> 00:30:40,958
galleyo project got sky 360

928
00:30:40,958 --> 00:30:42,250
you got so many groups now

929
00:30:42,541 --> 00:30:44,791
and that's that's great because now more

930
00:30:44,791 --> 00:30:46,000
and more scientists and

931
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:47,625
engineers are taking it seriously

932
00:30:47,625 --> 00:30:49,708
and trying to get some hard data on on

933
00:30:49,708 --> 00:30:51,500
these things yeah it is a

934
00:30:51,500 --> 00:30:52,875
good thing to see multiple

935
00:30:52,875 --> 00:30:55,166
efforts um would you say there's some

936
00:30:55,166 --> 00:30:57,166
competition perhaps with galleyo maybe

937
00:30:57,166 --> 00:30:58,333
friendly or are there

938
00:30:58,333 --> 00:31:01,458
perhaps different methods that uh UAPX is

939
00:31:01,458 --> 00:31:04,000
uh taking than galleyo if you

940
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:05,458
talk about it so so yeah there

941
00:31:05,750 --> 00:31:09,833
there are we have um extremely similar

942
00:31:09,833 --> 00:31:11,625
approaches and I I think that

943
00:31:11,625 --> 00:31:14,333
it's it's very very important

944
00:31:14,333 --> 00:31:16,708
to to to maintain friendliness and

945
00:31:16,708 --> 00:31:18,250
collaboration absolutely there is some

946
00:31:18,250 --> 00:31:19,625
sense of of competition

947
00:31:19,625 --> 00:31:22,250
but I think it's very important to try to

948
00:31:22,250 --> 00:31:24,000
reduce that because I think

949
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,166
that whatever UAP are whether

950
00:31:27,166 --> 00:31:29,458
whether it's ET or even if it's some sort

951
00:31:29,458 --> 00:31:30,916
of strange atmospheric

952
00:31:30,916 --> 00:31:32,166
phenomenon there's so much

953
00:31:32,458 --> 00:31:34,750
to be gained potentially by what humanity

954
00:31:34,750 --> 00:31:36,083
can learn that I think

955
00:31:36,083 --> 00:31:38,125
it's very important to not

956
00:31:38,125 --> 00:31:39,791
be competitive and petty and I think that

957
00:31:39,791 --> 00:31:41,958
might be a detriment so I I

958
00:31:41,958 --> 00:31:44,625
think that um but at this so

959
00:31:44,625 --> 00:31:47,166
it's very important to have multiple

960
00:31:47,166 --> 00:31:48,000
groups I still think there

961
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:49,583
are too many we should start

962
00:31:49,583 --> 00:31:51,666
collaborating more and merging I think is

963
00:31:51,666 --> 00:31:52,916
last time I try to count

964
00:31:52,916 --> 00:31:54,833
like I don't know 30 40 50

965
00:31:54,833 --> 00:31:56,666
groups I try to list all the acronyms

966
00:31:56,666 --> 00:31:58,125
impossible I do think more

967
00:31:58,125 --> 00:31:59,583
people need to merge but I don't

968
00:31:59,958 --> 00:32:02,250
think there should just be one effort

969
00:32:02,250 --> 00:32:03,916
because that's dangerous

970
00:32:03,916 --> 00:32:05,791
because if one if one group

971
00:32:05,791 --> 00:32:09,041
claims some amazing discovery you you

972
00:32:09,041 --> 00:32:10,708
want some healthy competition

973
00:32:10,708 --> 00:32:12,083
you want another group to be

974
00:32:12,083 --> 00:32:14,125
jealous and then say try to disprove them

975
00:32:14,125 --> 00:32:16,208
that's good because that'll

976
00:32:16,208 --> 00:32:18,541
prevent false positives false

977
00:32:18,541 --> 00:32:20,166
discoveries exactly as soon as there's

978
00:32:20,166 --> 00:32:21,375
something discovered that the

979
00:32:21,375 --> 00:32:22,916
next step is someone else to

980
00:32:22,916 --> 00:32:24,708
independently verify exactly so having

981
00:32:24,708 --> 00:32:25,500
someone with somewhat

982
00:32:25,500 --> 00:32:26,416
similar tools and ready to go

983
00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:29,166
would be a complete part of that puzzle

984
00:32:29,166 --> 00:32:30,875
to make that that scientific

985
00:32:30,875 --> 00:32:32,000
process yeah absolutely but

986
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,291
the main difference is resources also

987
00:32:34,291 --> 00:32:35,583
Galileo project very very

988
00:32:35,583 --> 00:32:37,208
rich we're trying on new apex

989
00:32:37,208 --> 00:32:39,625
to get more more resources but I think

990
00:32:39,625 --> 00:32:41,791
what we we want to have

991
00:32:41,791 --> 00:32:43,000
complementary measurements

992
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,000
not duplicate the exact same cameras

993
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,583
exact same sensors I think

994
00:32:46,583 --> 00:32:48,500
that's crucial because then once

995
00:32:48,500 --> 00:32:51,208
we it's not it says things are only only

996
00:32:51,208 --> 00:32:53,000
trade secrets temporarily

997
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:53,833
because if these groups are

998
00:32:54,041 --> 00:32:56,000
all scientific and they publish papers

999
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:57,375
you know Galileo project has published

1000
00:32:57,375 --> 00:32:58,166
several papers we're

1001
00:32:58,166 --> 00:33:01,291
working on our first results paper then

1002
00:33:01,291 --> 00:33:03,541
you can see what the other

1003
00:33:03,541 --> 00:33:05,291
person did and see ah that was

1004
00:33:05,291 --> 00:33:07,125
a bad idea that didn't work hey that was

1005
00:33:07,125 --> 00:33:08,708
a good idea let's steal

1006
00:33:08,708 --> 00:33:10,333
that which is a good thing you

1007
00:33:10,333 --> 00:33:12,541
want scientific groups to look at each

1008
00:33:12,541 --> 00:33:14,041
other even if they're competing and say

1009
00:33:14,041 --> 00:33:15,083
you know what that's

1010
00:33:15,083 --> 00:33:18,083
a good idea we need to do that or that's

1011
00:33:18,083 --> 00:33:19,458
a bad idea let's not

1012
00:33:19,458 --> 00:33:20,500
repeat the same mistake they did

1013
00:33:20,750 --> 00:33:22,666
and then we have this for cross

1014
00:33:22,666 --> 00:33:25,625
fertilization of good ideas so where

1015
00:33:25,625 --> 00:33:27,916
where is UAPX in this process

1016
00:33:27,916 --> 00:33:29,500
where where are you guys what's your

1017
00:33:29,500 --> 00:33:30,958
status right now so right now

1018
00:33:30,958 --> 00:33:32,333
we're still analyzing the data

1019
00:33:32,333 --> 00:33:34,500
from our first expedition even though

1020
00:33:34,500 --> 00:33:35,875
that was a long time ago

1021
00:33:35,875 --> 00:33:37,208
well let's talk about that yeah

1022
00:33:37,208 --> 00:33:39,500
let's let's do a little back just if you

1023
00:33:39,500 --> 00:33:40,875
can just so people aren't

1024
00:33:40,875 --> 00:33:42,291
familiar with the 30 second

1025
00:33:42,291 --> 00:33:46,708
background on that so on um uh UAPX we

1026
00:33:46,708 --> 00:33:49,250
had on our uh organization which as I

1027
00:33:49,250 --> 00:33:49,458
explained earlier we

1028
00:33:49,625 --> 00:33:51,625
have our goal of you know checking out

1029
00:33:51,625 --> 00:33:53,625
well what UAP are we we had an

1030
00:33:53,625 --> 00:33:56,500
expedition where we went to a

1031
00:33:56,500 --> 00:33:59,750
a supposed UAP hotspot more importantly

1032
00:33:59,750 --> 00:34:01,291
the site of the 2004

1033
00:34:01,291 --> 00:34:03,166
Nimitz encounter and that was um

1034
00:34:03,166 --> 00:34:06,416
off the coast of California uh on and

1035
00:34:06,416 --> 00:34:08,750
near Catalina Island so we

1036
00:34:08,750 --> 00:34:10,083
our expedition was funded

1037
00:34:10,083 --> 00:34:11,958
by uh Carolyn Corey and was part of a

1038
00:34:11,958 --> 00:34:14,083
documentary movie called A Tear in the

1039
00:34:14,083 --> 00:34:15,458
Sky and in that movie

1040
00:34:15,666 --> 00:34:19,166
we had um a lot of sensors deployed on a

1041
00:34:19,166 --> 00:34:20,625
roof in Laguna Beach

1042
00:34:20,625 --> 00:34:21,833
California and then sensors on

1043
00:34:21,833 --> 00:34:25,333
Catalina Island and we found some

1044
00:34:25,333 --> 00:34:26,416
potentially interesting

1045
00:34:26,416 --> 00:34:30,208
things but the thing is the data

1046
00:34:30,208 --> 00:34:31,875
analysis taking a long time because we

1047
00:34:31,875 --> 00:34:33,500
are a very small group and an

1048
00:34:33,500 --> 00:34:35,375
all-volunteer effort

1049
00:34:35,375 --> 00:34:39,125
so we want to publish our results perhaps

1050
00:34:39,125 --> 00:34:40,583
more than one

1051
00:34:40,583 --> 00:34:41,833
publication dedicated to different

1052
00:34:42,416 --> 00:34:43,708
aspects of our work like our

1053
00:34:43,708 --> 00:34:46,166
instrumentation versus any potentially

1054
00:34:46,166 --> 00:34:47,833
anomalous results and so

1055
00:34:47,833 --> 00:34:50,041
right now we're in the process of trying

1056
00:34:50,041 --> 00:34:53,208
to finish writing a

1057
00:34:53,208 --> 00:34:56,500
first scientific paper but

1058
00:34:56,500 --> 00:34:58,208
it isn't just going to be about

1059
00:34:58,208 --> 00:35:00,416
instrumentation because we also have

1060
00:35:00,416 --> 00:35:01,750
results maybe there'll all

1061
00:35:01,750 --> 00:35:03,166
be null results where it didn't find

1062
00:35:03,166 --> 00:35:03,833
anything interesting but

1063
00:35:03,833 --> 00:35:05,500
we might have found some

1064
00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:07,500
interesting things but we need to be

1065
00:35:07,500 --> 00:35:09,625
extremely careful anything we claim is

1066
00:35:09,625 --> 00:35:10,125
weird or interesting

1067
00:35:10,416 --> 00:35:13,500
we got to again go through our giant list

1068
00:35:13,500 --> 00:35:15,000
is it a bird is it a plane it

1069
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:16,500
is a drone is it a helicopter

1070
00:35:16,500 --> 00:35:19,875
etc that takes a lot of time especially

1071
00:35:19,875 --> 00:35:21,541
when you have several

1072
00:35:21,541 --> 00:35:24,291
hundred hours of videos of mostly

1073
00:35:24,291 --> 00:35:26,916
clouds rolling over the channel that's a

1074
00:35:26,916 --> 00:35:28,708
very difficult problem

1075
00:35:28,708 --> 00:35:30,916
even with ai even with image

1076
00:35:30,916 --> 00:35:33,500
processing that's a very hard problem so

1077
00:35:33,500 --> 00:35:34,166
that's why even though it's

1078
00:35:34,166 --> 00:35:35,666
been almost two years we still

1079
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:37,583
we're not ready but we're getting close

1080
00:35:37,583 --> 00:35:39,208
to publishing hopefully our

1081
00:35:39,208 --> 00:35:40,625
first our first paper on our

1082
00:35:40,625 --> 00:35:43,083
findings interesting it's fine with the

1083
00:35:43,083 --> 00:35:44,458
answer is no is but is there

1084
00:35:44,458 --> 00:35:46,375
any anything uh you can talk

1085
00:35:46,375 --> 00:35:52,083
about as far as um your findings or um

1086
00:35:52,083 --> 00:35:53,625
well i guess you already did

1087
00:35:53,625 --> 00:35:55,166
i'm trying to push a little

1088
00:35:55,166 --> 00:35:57,291
bit but i don't want to oh yeah sure no

1089
00:35:57,291 --> 00:35:59,000
we can i can i can talk

1090
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:00,541
about our most interesting

1091
00:36:01,375 --> 00:36:03,333
our i can try to i can focus on our

1092
00:36:03,333 --> 00:36:05,291
number one most interesting event it's

1093
00:36:05,291 --> 00:36:06,166
been covered publicly

1094
00:36:06,166 --> 00:36:08,791
you can go on youtube and look at our scu

1095
00:36:08,791 --> 00:36:10,125
talk that's a scientific

1096
00:36:10,125 --> 00:36:11,541
coalition for uap studies

1097
00:36:11,541 --> 00:36:13,875
or the limena conference and this is also

1098
00:36:13,875 --> 00:36:14,458
an important part of

1099
00:36:14,458 --> 00:36:16,333
the scientific process

1100
00:36:16,333 --> 00:36:17,791
especially on a controversial topic like

1101
00:36:17,791 --> 00:36:19,458
this so many people

1102
00:36:19,458 --> 00:36:20,458
disagree and say we should have

1103
00:36:20,458 --> 00:36:21,791
published we should publish a paper first

1104
00:36:21,791 --> 00:36:22,708
before we talk about

1105
00:36:22,708 --> 00:36:24,250
anything but there's two reasons why

1106
00:36:24,250 --> 00:36:27,250
we did it number one is we do have an

1107
00:36:27,250 --> 00:36:29,083
incredible spirit of openness

1108
00:36:29,083 --> 00:36:29,666
we haven't shared all our data

1109
00:36:30,416 --> 00:36:31,541
not because we don't want to because

1110
00:36:31,541 --> 00:36:33,666
there's many terabytes of data so it's

1111
00:36:33,666 --> 00:36:35,041
really really hard but we

1112
00:36:35,041 --> 00:36:37,500
want to share what the world what we

1113
00:36:37,500 --> 00:36:39,000
think our findings are

1114
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:40,583
another important reason why we want

1115
00:36:40,583 --> 00:36:43,083
to talk about it even before we publish a

1116
00:36:43,083 --> 00:36:44,333
scientific paper is then we

1117
00:36:44,333 --> 00:36:46,000
get criticism that's great

1118
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,291
because then get the early criticism and

1119
00:36:48,291 --> 00:36:49,791
still later and then we get

1120
00:36:49,791 --> 00:36:51,250
we add to our list of things

1121
00:36:51,250 --> 00:36:53,458
it could be because someone will watch

1122
00:36:53,458 --> 00:36:55,500
our talk and say oh that's a flock of

1123
00:36:55,500 --> 00:36:56,083
seagulls or oh that's

1124
00:36:56,333 --> 00:36:59,833
a this that's a that's that's good we can

1125
00:36:59,833 --> 00:37:01,708
test that idea we don't

1126
00:37:01,708 --> 00:37:03,458
like on uapx we don't like

1127
00:37:03,458 --> 00:37:06,250
truth by proclamation if someone's got an

1128
00:37:06,250 --> 00:37:07,791
idea for what we saw we're

1129
00:37:07,791 --> 00:37:09,291
going to test it we're going to

1130
00:37:09,291 --> 00:37:12,291
try to replicate the that situation kind

1131
00:37:12,291 --> 00:37:14,291
of like mick west is famous

1132
00:37:14,291 --> 00:37:15,958
for doing in his garage we're

1133
00:37:15,958 --> 00:37:18,000
going to do that not in garage but in my

1134
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,916
lab and we're going to

1135
00:37:19,916 --> 00:37:20,875
replicate all the ideas we haven't

1136
00:37:21,916 --> 00:37:24,791
finished doing that and so that's why we

1137
00:37:24,791 --> 00:37:26,375
want to before we we publish

1138
00:37:26,375 --> 00:37:27,583
we want to test but i can tell

1139
00:37:27,583 --> 00:37:30,375
you about our number one most interesting

1140
00:37:30,375 --> 00:37:33,000
potential anomaly which was a

1141
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:34,375
there was a dark spot we saw

1142
00:37:34,375 --> 00:37:37,583
in one of our in one of our cameras and

1143
00:37:37,583 --> 00:37:39,541
and this dark spot is there

1144
00:37:39,541 --> 00:37:42,000
on several videos sometimes it

1145
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,333
has dots in it sometimes it doesn't have

1146
00:37:44,333 --> 00:37:46,208
dots in it and we don't know

1147
00:37:46,208 --> 00:37:46,875
what it is so we're testing

1148
00:37:47,666 --> 00:37:50,041
things like could it be a fly on the

1149
00:37:50,041 --> 00:37:52,000
camera lens could it be an artifact in

1150
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,500
the camera but all the

1151
00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:57,750
tests we perform so far none of the

1152
00:37:57,750 --> 00:37:59,083
mundane explanations seem

1153
00:37:59,083 --> 00:38:00,958
to fit so i know it sounds

1154
00:38:00,958 --> 00:38:02,541
boring when i say it that way a dark spot

1155
00:38:02,541 --> 00:38:05,000
in a camera in the movie

1156
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:06,666
um it's called a wormhole or

1157
00:38:06,666 --> 00:38:09,458
wormhole like anomaly but the thing is we

1158
00:38:09,458 --> 00:38:11,000
have to be very careful of

1159
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,083
these um these really um really

1160
00:38:15,125 --> 00:38:17,750
kind of crazy explanations where we don't

1161
00:38:17,750 --> 00:38:19,208
have the scientific evidence

1162
00:38:19,208 --> 00:38:20,833
for believe me i would like

1163
00:38:20,833 --> 00:38:23,416
nothing more than for the black hole the

1164
00:38:23,416 --> 00:38:25,333
hole in the clouds or dark

1165
00:38:25,333 --> 00:38:26,583
spot in the camera that we

1166
00:38:26,583 --> 00:38:29,291
sought to be a wormhole but that's a very

1167
00:38:29,291 --> 00:38:30,375
high bar of evidence no

1168
00:38:30,375 --> 00:38:31,875
one's seen a wormhole before we

1169
00:38:31,875 --> 00:38:35,041
don't even know how one would behave like

1170
00:38:35,041 --> 00:38:36,000
mathematically how that

1171
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:37,500
would translate into the real

1172
00:38:37,500 --> 00:38:41,291
world and so we we cannot call it a

1173
00:38:41,291 --> 00:38:42,625
wormhole even though that makes it sound more exciting but it's

1174
00:38:43,500 --> 00:38:47,166
a it's a dark spot in our camera and

1175
00:38:47,166 --> 00:38:50,291
we're trying to determine is it real is

1176
00:38:50,291 --> 00:38:51,875
it a hole in the clouds

1177
00:38:51,875 --> 00:38:54,583
that the camera saw in our expedition or

1178
00:38:54,583 --> 00:38:56,666
is it is a glitch in the camera

1179
00:38:56,666 --> 00:38:57,583
everything we've we've

1180
00:38:57,583 --> 00:39:00,000
we've looked at so far seems to imply

1181
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,041
it's some it's a real hole

1182
00:39:02,041 --> 00:39:03,958
in the clouds and not a not a

1183
00:39:03,958 --> 00:39:05,708
glitch in the camera or nearby but we

1184
00:39:05,708 --> 00:39:07,500
need to be very careful and test all the different possibilities

1185
00:39:08,666 --> 00:39:11,541
but really that's our number one most

1186
00:39:11,541 --> 00:39:14,791
exciting um uh event that we're

1187
00:39:14,791 --> 00:39:16,625
continuing to study and that's

1188
00:39:16,625 --> 00:39:19,166
why the um so the movie is called a tear

1189
00:39:19,166 --> 00:39:20,583
in the sky actually it was

1190
00:39:20,583 --> 00:39:22,375
named before that actually so

1191
00:39:22,375 --> 00:39:25,541
so i think um carolyn could claim to have

1192
00:39:25,541 --> 00:39:26,791
been i don't know psychic

1193
00:39:26,791 --> 00:39:29,250
and like saw you know remote

1194
00:39:29,250 --> 00:39:31,291
viewed the future or or whatever because

1195
00:39:31,291 --> 00:39:32,958
it was named before we

1196
00:39:32,958 --> 00:39:33,833
before we observed that but that

1197
00:39:34,708 --> 00:39:37,541
really is our most exciting thing we saw

1198
00:39:37,541 --> 00:39:39,291
some other things but as

1199
00:39:39,291 --> 00:39:40,791
explained in some of my other

1200
00:39:40,791 --> 00:39:42,875
already um my and professor kevin

1201
00:39:42,875 --> 00:39:45,125
canute's youtube presentations that we

1202
00:39:45,125 --> 00:39:46,333
were able to explain a lot of

1203
00:39:46,333 --> 00:39:50,083
the other anomalies as as camera noise or

1204
00:39:50,083 --> 00:39:51,083
one example is the

1205
00:39:51,083 --> 00:39:52,833
international space station

1206
00:39:52,833 --> 00:39:55,083
and i think that's really important

1207
00:39:55,083 --> 00:39:57,041
because if you don't look

1208
00:39:57,041 --> 00:39:59,208
at your own data critically

1209
00:39:59,208 --> 00:40:01,041
someone else will do it for you and then

1210
00:40:01,041 --> 00:40:02,375
make fun of you right

1211
00:40:02,375 --> 00:40:03,750
afterwards so we are we try to

1212
00:40:04,250 --> 00:40:07,208
be very uh very very self skeptical and

1213
00:40:07,208 --> 00:40:08,583
critical of our data we

1214
00:40:08,583 --> 00:40:11,166
don't claim something is weird

1215
00:40:11,166 --> 00:40:15,250
unless we've tested multiple mundane

1216
00:40:15,250 --> 00:40:16,250
hypotheses and found them

1217
00:40:16,250 --> 00:40:18,416
and found them lacking is you

1218
00:40:18,416 --> 00:40:22,833
a px in a position to draw firm

1219
00:40:22,833 --> 00:40:24,458
conclusions on their data is that what

1220
00:40:24,458 --> 00:40:25,708
your goal is or is it

1221
00:40:25,708 --> 00:40:27,541
really more to observe what's out there

1222
00:40:27,541 --> 00:40:29,208
and report on the data

1223
00:40:29,208 --> 00:40:30,000
without really looking into

1224
00:40:30,666 --> 00:40:33,541
uh some of the more subjective and and

1225
00:40:33,541 --> 00:40:35,875
second tier analysis such as origin

1226
00:40:35,875 --> 00:40:36,708
things of that nature

1227
00:40:36,708 --> 00:40:37,916
because one of the problems i always hear

1228
00:40:37,916 --> 00:40:41,041
in this conversation uh is

1229
00:40:41,041 --> 00:40:42,250
people immediately jump to

1230
00:40:42,250 --> 00:40:43,916
conclusions as they're considering the

1231
00:40:43,916 --> 00:40:45,375
data immediately and so

1232
00:40:45,375 --> 00:40:46,708
it's and that drives them

1233
00:40:46,708 --> 00:40:48,750
either into or away from the topic to

1234
00:40:48,750 --> 00:40:50,583
some degree yes that's a

1235
00:40:50,583 --> 00:40:52,958
great question so yeah we want to

1236
00:40:52,958 --> 00:40:55,375
stay away from jumping to conclusions

1237
00:40:55,375 --> 00:40:57,000
that doesn't mean we never want a

1238
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:58,416
conclusion we're we're in it

1239
00:40:58,625 --> 00:41:02,375
for the long game the long haul maybe

1240
00:41:02,375 --> 00:41:03,708
someday you know we'll get

1241
00:41:03,708 --> 00:41:05,791
a high or or gal air project

1242
00:41:05,791 --> 00:41:07,333
because somebody else will get a high

1243
00:41:07,333 --> 00:41:08,500
resolution photograph of you

1244
00:41:08,500 --> 00:41:09,833
know i don't know flying saucer

1245
00:41:09,833 --> 00:41:12,541
an alien waving from the window so it is

1246
00:41:12,541 --> 00:41:14,000
always it's the goal to

1247
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:15,583
eventually want to get solid

1248
00:41:15,583 --> 00:41:18,000
conclusions so so on uapx we do want

1249
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:19,708
solid conclusions but not

1250
00:41:19,708 --> 00:41:21,583
not not yet and probably

1251
00:41:21,583 --> 00:41:24,250
not for a while so initially the idea is

1252
00:41:24,250 --> 00:41:25,958
you know take some data

1253
00:41:25,958 --> 00:41:28,166
figure out what things are not

1254
00:41:28,500 --> 00:41:31,291
right go through the mundane hypotheses

1255
00:41:31,291 --> 00:41:33,750
which is it's which is a challenge

1256
00:41:33,750 --> 00:41:35,208
because you never know

1257
00:41:35,208 --> 00:41:37,833
if there was that one mundane hypothesis

1258
00:41:37,833 --> 00:41:39,208
you forgot to consider

1259
00:41:39,208 --> 00:41:40,583
that explains your data as

1260
00:41:40,583 --> 00:41:43,541
boring and ordinary so it's a very very

1261
00:41:43,541 --> 00:41:45,500
difficult process and it's a combination

1262
00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:46,750
sort of of deductive

1263
00:41:46,750 --> 00:41:48,666
and inductive reasoning of different

1264
00:41:48,666 --> 00:41:50,375
kinds of reasoning and

1265
00:41:50,375 --> 00:41:52,458
and so the the goal is solid

1266
00:41:53,125 --> 00:41:55,500
conclusions like you know it's an

1267
00:41:55,500 --> 00:41:57,833
advanced craft or it's this natural

1268
00:41:57,833 --> 00:42:00,916
phenomenon but not right away

1269
00:42:00,916 --> 00:42:02,625
not while we're still getting our sea

1270
00:42:02,625 --> 00:42:04,333
legs you know so to speak you know i

1271
00:42:04,333 --> 00:42:05,541
could use navy analogy

1272
00:42:05,541 --> 00:42:07,875
since you know gary verise is the former

1273
00:42:07,875 --> 00:42:10,458
navy guy and president of of uapx but

1274
00:42:10,458 --> 00:42:12,083
basically we want to

1275
00:42:12,083 --> 00:42:15,791
first feel things out get to know our our

1276
00:42:15,791 --> 00:42:17,416
instruments our sensors make

1277
00:42:17,416 --> 00:42:18,958
sure they're well calibrated

1278
00:42:19,250 --> 00:42:21,625
not jump to any conclusions and that

1279
00:42:21,625 --> 00:42:23,833
temptation is already was as there we

1280
00:42:23,833 --> 00:42:24,750
already started doing

1281
00:42:24,750 --> 00:42:26,875
that a little bit with you know we we

1282
00:42:26,875 --> 00:42:28,458
call it we called our dark spot a

1283
00:42:28,458 --> 00:42:29,541
wormhole like anomaly

1284
00:42:29,541 --> 00:42:31,458
which was a compromise between calling it

1285
00:42:31,458 --> 00:42:33,416
a wormhole versus calling it

1286
00:42:33,416 --> 00:42:35,000
you know a boring name like

1287
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,500
it's a dark dark spot in the camera hole

1288
00:42:37,500 --> 00:42:38,875
in the cloud so the

1289
00:42:38,875 --> 00:42:40,791
temptation is always there so it's

1290
00:42:40,791 --> 00:42:44,041
a constant battle because scientists

1291
00:42:44,041 --> 00:42:45,000
we're just we're human

1292
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:46,166
beings we're not vulcans like on

1293
00:42:46,541 --> 00:42:49,125
star trek or lieutenant commander data

1294
00:42:49,125 --> 00:42:50,625
initially without emotions

1295
00:42:50,625 --> 00:42:52,708
we have emotions too i have

1296
00:42:52,708 --> 00:42:55,666
emotions i sometimes am very tempted to

1297
00:42:55,666 --> 00:42:57,708
say oh my gosh let's you

1298
00:42:57,708 --> 00:42:59,875
know go find evidence of alien

1299
00:42:59,875 --> 00:43:01,375
spacecraft but that's going to be really

1300
00:43:01,375 --> 00:43:04,041
hard and so we want to balance that

1301
00:43:04,041 --> 00:43:05,541
excitement with some

1302
00:43:05,541 --> 00:43:09,333
hard nosed skepticism and and data

1303
00:43:09,333 --> 00:43:10,583
without becoming over

1304
00:43:10,583 --> 00:43:12,916
skeptical and dumping anomalies

1305
00:43:13,333 --> 00:43:15,500
and dumping data we don't like if

1306
00:43:15,500 --> 00:43:17,833
something's weird we're going to say oh

1307
00:43:17,833 --> 00:43:19,250
this is weird because we

1308
00:43:19,250 --> 00:43:21,333
test it and it's not this this this this

1309
00:43:21,333 --> 00:43:22,416
this we're not going to

1310
00:43:22,416 --> 00:43:24,291
write because we reject all

1311
00:43:24,291 --> 00:43:25,708
those things therefore it's an alien

1312
00:43:25,708 --> 00:43:26,541
spacecraft we're not going

1313
00:43:26,541 --> 00:43:28,583
to be able to do that maybe

1314
00:43:28,583 --> 00:43:30,583
someday but we're very far from being

1315
00:43:30,583 --> 00:43:31,708
able to do that yet we're

1316
00:43:31,708 --> 00:43:33,875
just getting started i've heard

1317
00:43:33,875 --> 00:43:35,791
similar sentiment from the galler project

1318
00:43:35,791 --> 00:43:36,541
to a certain degree and

1319
00:43:36,541 --> 00:43:38,333
you know just you know set

1320
00:43:38,333 --> 00:43:39,916
your expectations that's where this

1321
00:43:39,916 --> 00:43:42,083
conversation is now so none of the

1322
00:43:42,083 --> 00:43:42,791
projects here they're

1323
00:43:43,208 --> 00:43:46,000
standing up we're really calibrating and

1324
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:47,125
getting to better understand

1325
00:43:47,125 --> 00:43:48,458
what's in front of us we're

1326
00:43:48,458 --> 00:43:50,833
not necessarily expecting to grab a

1327
00:43:50,833 --> 00:43:52,541
snapshot in the you know next six months

1328
00:43:52,541 --> 00:43:54,083
this is a long process

1329
00:43:54,083 --> 00:43:56,500
exactly we've considered ourselves

1330
00:43:56,500 --> 00:43:59,416
extremely lucky on uapx that we got at

1331
00:43:59,416 --> 00:44:00,791
least one potentially

1332
00:44:00,791 --> 00:44:02,625
interesting event again you know i don't

1333
00:44:02,625 --> 00:44:03,958
want to call it a wormhole

1334
00:44:03,958 --> 00:44:05,250
but that would be amazing if

1335
00:44:05,250 --> 00:44:07,375
that's what it was i don't think it it is

1336
00:44:07,375 --> 00:44:08,750
we don't have evidence yet

1337
00:44:08,750 --> 00:44:09,583
that that that's what it is

1338
00:44:09,875 --> 00:44:12,500
that's a high bar but at least we have

1339
00:44:12,500 --> 00:44:14,750
one anomaly that is still refusing

1340
00:44:14,750 --> 00:44:16,208
explanation that's exciting

1341
00:44:16,208 --> 00:44:18,125
and like i said most of the other

1342
00:44:18,125 --> 00:44:20,083
so-called anomalies we saw

1343
00:44:20,083 --> 00:44:21,500
turn out to have explanations

1344
00:44:21,500 --> 00:44:23,875
but we consider ourselves extremely lucky

1345
00:44:23,875 --> 00:44:24,708
because how can you

1346
00:44:24,708 --> 00:44:26,375
just go out for a week

1347
00:44:26,375 --> 00:44:28,250
you know to the location where there were

1348
00:44:28,250 --> 00:44:29,500
some tic tacs in 2004

1349
00:44:29,500 --> 00:44:31,333
that was 2004 what are they

1350
00:44:31,333 --> 00:44:32,833
what are they hanging around right it

1351
00:44:32,833 --> 00:44:34,625
seems so unlikely that we

1352
00:44:34,625 --> 00:44:35,750
would catch something so we

1353
00:44:36,291 --> 00:44:38,375
consider ourselves supremely lucky

1354
00:44:38,375 --> 00:44:40,583
because we we we especially the

1355
00:44:40,583 --> 00:44:42,666
scientists on uapx me and uh

1356
00:44:42,666 --> 00:44:44,916
um and and kevin who was in the the movie

1357
00:44:44,916 --> 00:44:46,541
with me were like what if we

1358
00:44:46,541 --> 00:44:48,000
find nothing which is great

1359
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,458
for science because calibrating the

1360
00:44:50,458 --> 00:44:52,000
instruments not so great for

1361
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,041
a movie and so we we consider

1362
00:44:55,041 --> 00:44:57,250
us as extremely lucky that we saw

1363
00:44:57,250 --> 00:44:59,500
something we're not only that makes the

1364
00:44:59,500 --> 00:45:00,250
the film more exciting

1365
00:45:00,500 --> 00:45:03,333
than um a tear in the sky but is also

1366
00:45:03,333 --> 00:45:05,375
worthy of years of scientific

1367
00:45:05,375 --> 00:45:06,000
investigation afterwards

1368
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,166
let's try to figure out what the heck did

1369
00:45:08,166 --> 00:45:09,708
we did we see because we

1370
00:45:09,708 --> 00:45:12,166
might have end up ended up being

1371
00:45:12,166 --> 00:45:15,375
just exclusively a calibration expedition

1372
00:45:15,375 --> 00:45:17,500
which would also be okay

1373
00:45:17,500 --> 00:45:19,208
how do you so i know there's

1374
00:45:19,208 --> 00:45:21,458
some academic journals that this could

1375
00:45:21,458 --> 00:45:22,500
these results could

1376
00:45:22,500 --> 00:45:24,750
potentially um be published and

1377
00:45:24,750 --> 00:45:27,791
one of them you mentioned is is limena um

1378
00:45:27,791 --> 00:45:28,875
i'm not sure how familiar you

1379
00:45:28,875 --> 00:45:29,458
are with them but if you are

1380
00:45:29,875 --> 00:45:31,708
familiar might be hopefully get a little

1381
00:45:31,708 --> 00:45:32,791
background because my understanding is

1382
00:45:32,791 --> 00:45:34,833
this is a anomaly or

1383
00:45:34,833 --> 00:45:40,208
or perhaps uap focused paper or um um not

1384
00:45:40,208 --> 00:45:42,625
paper but um what's the right term

1385
00:45:42,625 --> 00:45:43,500
journal journal thank

1386
00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:47,041
you it's a it's a uap or anomaly based

1387
00:45:47,041 --> 00:45:49,416
journal um which i think has

1388
00:45:49,416 --> 00:45:51,166
its pros and cons uh one of

1389
00:45:51,166 --> 00:45:55,166
the pros is that it's it solidifies its

1390
00:45:55,166 --> 00:45:56,125
position and starts

1391
00:45:56,125 --> 00:45:58,416
to coalesce perhaps um

1392
00:45:58,791 --> 00:46:00,916
coincident cases or similar cases under a

1393
00:46:00,916 --> 00:46:02,416
banner that can be looked

1394
00:46:02,416 --> 00:46:04,666
at from outside in yeah but

1395
00:46:04,666 --> 00:46:06,791
the the con of it also is that it's

1396
00:46:06,791 --> 00:46:10,083
outside of mainstream academia still uh

1397
00:46:10,083 --> 00:46:10,958
and might get looked

1398
00:46:10,958 --> 00:46:13,375
at differently um how do you think about

1399
00:46:13,375 --> 00:46:15,333
that that pro and con when you think

1400
00:46:15,333 --> 00:46:16,416
about publishing your

1401
00:46:16,416 --> 00:46:19,083
results for uapx that's an excellent

1402
00:46:19,083 --> 00:46:22,250
question so this is why actually we're

1403
00:46:22,250 --> 00:46:23,375
not planning planning

1404
00:46:23,375 --> 00:46:25,208
on publishing a first paper in limena and

1405
00:46:25,208 --> 00:46:26,166
i can say that because i'm

1406
00:46:26,166 --> 00:46:27,375
great friends with the chief

1407
00:46:27,791 --> 00:46:29,333
editor mike syphonia i've already told

1408
00:46:29,333 --> 00:46:31,541
him this and and i he and

1409
00:46:31,541 --> 00:46:32,666
i already explained no hard

1410
00:46:32,666 --> 00:46:35,166
felix we support him and some of our

1411
00:46:35,166 --> 00:46:36,375
other some of my colleagues

1412
00:46:36,375 --> 00:46:37,791
are going to write papers for

1413
00:46:37,791 --> 00:46:42,375
limena but for the first result from uapx

1414
00:46:42,375 --> 00:46:44,500
we all have agreed on uapx

1415
00:46:44,500 --> 00:46:46,125
we need to go to something

1416
00:46:46,125 --> 00:46:48,541
established again there are pros and cons

1417
00:46:48,541 --> 00:46:50,666
we will absolutely probably eventually

1418
00:46:50,666 --> 00:46:52,000
end up with multiple

1419
00:46:52,541 --> 00:46:56,208
papers in limena but it's too new so the

1420
00:46:56,208 --> 00:46:57,000
reason why we want to go

1421
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:58,250
to something established

1422
00:46:58,250 --> 00:47:01,375
because we don't want to hear critics

1423
00:47:01,375 --> 00:47:03,458
skeptics debunkers say oh

1424
00:47:03,458 --> 00:47:04,958
that doesn't count that's in

1425
00:47:04,958 --> 00:47:07,041
some no-name journal which again to be

1426
00:47:07,041 --> 00:47:08,250
fair to mike he's going to

1427
00:47:08,250 --> 00:47:09,666
work his way up to try to make

1428
00:47:09,666 --> 00:47:11,000
it a big important thing but he's

1429
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:12,500
starting at zero everyone

1430
00:47:12,500 --> 00:47:14,333
starts at zero if you found a new

1431
00:47:14,333 --> 00:47:16,291
journal you start at zero you're not

1432
00:47:16,291 --> 00:47:18,208
famous you're not considered rigorous or

1433
00:47:18,208 --> 00:47:18,625
important yet everyone

1434
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:20,583
starts they're the most important

1435
00:47:20,583 --> 00:47:22,083
journals in the world had to start

1436
00:47:22,083 --> 00:47:23,375
somewhere from day zero you

1437
00:47:23,375 --> 00:47:26,625
know even science and nature magazine so

1438
00:47:26,625 --> 00:47:28,541
the idea is we want to go

1439
00:47:28,541 --> 00:47:30,208
for something in astronomy and

1440
00:47:30,208 --> 00:47:32,125
aerospace like the galler project has

1441
00:47:32,125 --> 00:47:33,458
done i'll be honest you know we were a

1442
00:47:33,458 --> 00:47:34,083
little jealous because

1443
00:47:34,083 --> 00:47:35,666
we had results already we could have

1444
00:47:35,666 --> 00:47:36,833
published you know and stuff

1445
00:47:36,833 --> 00:47:38,291
but the thing is that's not

1446
00:47:38,291 --> 00:47:41,291
important these kinds of competitive

1447
00:47:41,291 --> 00:47:42,833
feelings and professional jealousies

1448
00:47:46,416 --> 00:47:43,833
there's no room for this

1449
00:47:46,416 --> 00:47:48,500
galler project being first

1450
00:47:48,500 --> 00:47:50,500
has a massive advantage for us

1451
00:47:50,500 --> 00:47:52,750
so we can we can be be petty and talk

1452
00:47:52,750 --> 00:47:53,916
about how well we have

1453
00:47:53,916 --> 00:47:55,750
actual results and we and we

1454
00:47:55,750 --> 00:47:57,375
try to publish them first but we just

1455
00:47:57,375 --> 00:47:59,125
didn't have time for installing the paper

1456
00:47:59,125 --> 00:48:00,625
but a more important

1457
00:48:00,625 --> 00:48:02,541
positive way to look at this is because

1458
00:48:02,541 --> 00:48:03,916
galler project has already

1459
00:48:03,916 --> 00:48:05,416
started publishing papers

1460
00:48:05,416 --> 00:48:08,125
now it's easier for uapx so this is a

1461
00:48:08,125 --> 00:48:09,166
positive because now when

1462
00:48:09,166 --> 00:48:10,333
uapx tries to publish we'll say

1463
00:48:10,708 --> 00:48:13,208
hey hey you publish their paper oh you

1464
00:48:13,208 --> 00:48:13,791
just published them

1465
00:48:13,791 --> 00:48:15,000
because they're harvard and we're

1466
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:16,916
you know a lower university that's not

1467
00:48:16,916 --> 00:48:18,375
fair that's not ethical so

1468
00:48:18,375 --> 00:48:20,083
that's great now we can cite the

1469
00:48:20,083 --> 00:48:23,250
galler project papers as a reference in

1470
00:48:23,250 --> 00:48:24,541
our bibliography and

1471
00:48:24,541 --> 00:48:27,375
say and and point to them

1472
00:48:27,375 --> 00:48:31,333
as paving the way and so basically thanks

1473
00:48:31,333 --> 00:48:32,875
to someone of avi

1474
00:48:32,875 --> 00:48:35,458
lobes incredible reputation

1475
00:48:36,666 --> 00:48:40,041
he's helping break that ceiling and now

1476
00:48:40,041 --> 00:48:41,458
it's he's he's made the

1477
00:48:41,458 --> 00:48:44,791
uapx's path easier actually

1478
00:48:44,791 --> 00:48:46,666
um it's he's making it easier on his

1479
00:48:46,666 --> 00:48:48,125
competitors but that's okay i hope he

1480
00:48:48,125 --> 00:48:49,000
feels okay about that

1481
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,000
because before galler project published

1482
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:51,916
man we would have had

1483
00:48:51,916 --> 00:48:53,583
probably hell of a time but we

1484
00:48:53,583 --> 00:48:55,333
want what we want to do is we want to aim

1485
00:48:55,333 --> 00:48:57,708
for similar caliber of

1486
00:48:57,708 --> 00:48:58,833
journals i'm not saying

1487
00:48:58,833 --> 00:49:02,000
necessarily the identical uh journals but

1488
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:02,958
we want to aim for the

1489
00:49:02,958 --> 00:49:03,208
same caliber where galler

1490
00:49:04,250 --> 00:49:07,750
project is publishing because we want to

1491
00:49:07,750 --> 00:49:09,583
establish uap by looking at

1492
00:49:09,583 --> 00:49:11,375
by starting out by trying to

1493
00:49:11,375 --> 00:49:14,416
publish in journals that are very well

1494
00:49:14,416 --> 00:49:16,583
established already everyone knows

1495
00:49:16,583 --> 00:49:18,083
they're real they're not

1496
00:49:18,083 --> 00:49:21,125
pseudoscientific they're not woo they're

1497
00:49:21,125 --> 00:49:22,416
not crackpot because

1498
00:49:22,416 --> 00:49:24,125
they've been around for 20-30

1499
00:49:24,125 --> 00:49:26,041
years and are already have a high

1500
00:49:26,041 --> 00:49:27,750
reputation either in aerospace or astronomy or similar

1501
00:49:29,125 --> 00:49:32,291
field like that so that's our goal very

1502
00:49:32,291 --> 00:49:34,458
cool awesome how else do

1503
00:49:34,458 --> 00:49:35,750
we move this conversation

1504
00:49:35,750 --> 00:49:39,166
forward outside of just detection and

1505
00:49:39,166 --> 00:49:41,250
sensing you know are there other areas

1506
00:49:41,250 --> 00:49:42,750
where we could apply

1507
00:49:42,750 --> 00:49:44,791
our knowledge and our technology to

1508
00:49:44,791 --> 00:49:45,958
increase our understanding

1509
00:49:45,958 --> 00:49:48,041
outside of looking for where

1510
00:49:48,041 --> 00:49:51,958
something is in the sky um i'm not sure

1511
00:49:51,958 --> 00:49:53,500
that's a very open-ended

1512
00:49:53,500 --> 00:49:54,333
question um you mean like in terms

1513
00:49:56,375 --> 00:49:59,250
of like maybe a culture the cultural

1514
00:49:59,250 --> 00:50:01,708
sphere that's one we could look at it

1515
00:50:01,708 --> 00:50:02,500
from a cultural sphere we

1516
00:50:02,500 --> 00:50:04,333
could look at other avenues of

1517
00:50:04,333 --> 00:50:05,458
technological exploration

1518
00:50:05,458 --> 00:50:08,125
outside of you know remote sensing

1519
00:50:08,125 --> 00:50:11,208
um against the sky perhaps or or in space

1520
00:50:11,208 --> 00:50:13,750
there is a crazy i i i can

1521
00:50:13,750 --> 00:50:15,041
say one crazy thing we can

1522
00:50:15,041 --> 00:50:18,541
we can edit it out later but outside of

1523
00:50:18,541 --> 00:50:19,041
remote sensing of the sky you know you know one of the

1524
00:50:21,750 --> 00:50:24,958
obviously the most common hypotheses for

1525
00:50:24,958 --> 00:50:27,291
uap is that their advanced

1526
00:50:27,291 --> 00:50:28,958
spacecraft and not necessarily

1527
00:50:28,958 --> 00:50:30,916
human ones you know it's such a common

1528
00:50:30,916 --> 00:50:33,333
hypothesis that we can't avoid it and i

1529
00:50:33,333 --> 00:50:34,458
think that's okay to

1530
00:50:34,458 --> 00:50:36,500
talk about and is getting increasingly

1531
00:50:36,500 --> 00:50:38,291
socially acceptable but on

1532
00:50:38,291 --> 00:50:40,291
that aspect there are all those

1533
00:50:40,291 --> 00:50:41,625
there have been all these claims you know

1534
00:50:41,625 --> 00:50:43,000
of alien abduction we stay

1535
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:44,166
away from that uapx because

1536
00:50:44,166 --> 00:50:46,208
we're focused on remote sensing

1537
00:50:46,208 --> 00:50:46,416
nevertheless i have an opinion on that which is because

1538
00:50:46,666 --> 00:50:51,000
i i think this is where you go like

1539
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:52,166
something other than remote

1540
00:50:52,166 --> 00:50:53,166
sensing of the sky right this

1541
00:50:53,166 --> 00:50:56,250
is not yeah good sky yeah so i i really

1542
00:50:56,250 --> 00:50:59,125
it still censors though and that is

1543
00:50:59,125 --> 00:51:00,000
always people who claim

1544
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,625
to have be repeat alien abductees we we

1545
00:51:02,625 --> 00:51:05,041
laugh but instead of

1546
00:51:05,041 --> 00:51:07,208
discounting crazy hypotheses as a

1547
00:51:07,208 --> 00:51:09,625
scientist i'm like let's test it i would

1548
00:51:09,625 --> 00:51:11,250
love to instrument and people have

1549
00:51:11,250 --> 00:51:12,083
claimed this has already

1550
00:51:12,083 --> 00:51:12,416
happened i'm seeing any scientific publications of this people claim to be repeat abductees all

1551
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,208
right put a camera in their bedroom like

1552
00:51:18,208 --> 00:51:20,333
i'm all for getting data

1553
00:51:20,333 --> 00:51:22,500
even if the odds are really high

1554
00:51:22,500 --> 00:51:25,291
that it's probably nonsense what if it's

1555
00:51:25,291 --> 00:51:28,208
not so i'm all for testing

1556
00:51:28,208 --> 00:51:30,625
any any crazy idea we can think

1557
00:51:30,625 --> 00:51:33,333
of instead of immediately disregarding or

1558
00:51:33,333 --> 00:51:34,333
discarding it is like

1559
00:51:34,333 --> 00:51:37,041
that's impossible let's apply the

1560
00:51:37,041 --> 00:51:37,750
scientific method let's put it to the test so it doesn't just have to be remote sensing of the sky

1561
00:51:42,125 --> 00:51:45,333
or space or see there are other aspects

1562
00:51:45,333 --> 00:51:47,875
that are you could say traditionally

1563
00:51:47,875 --> 00:51:49,041
associated with this

1564
00:51:49,041 --> 00:51:51,958
phenomenon that sounds so crazy so

1565
00:51:51,958 --> 00:51:54,375
improbable of being true but

1566
00:51:54,375 --> 00:51:56,458
nevertheless we can still test

1567
00:51:56,458 --> 00:51:59,000
those ideas so even though i'm skeptical

1568
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:00,833
of the like less nut nuts

1569
00:52:00,833 --> 00:52:02,125
and bolts kinds of things

1570
00:52:02,125 --> 00:52:04,333
these are still things we can test with nuts and bolts we can another example is people

1571
00:52:06,500 --> 00:52:10,791
who claim to have had crazy things happen

1572
00:52:10,791 --> 00:52:13,375
to them we've got we've got

1573
00:52:13,375 --> 00:52:15,458
lie detector tests are nearly

1574
00:52:15,458 --> 00:52:17,833
impossible nearly impossible to break

1575
00:52:17,833 --> 00:52:18,750
they've tested them on

1576
00:52:18,750 --> 00:52:21,625
mythbusters it's really hard to

1577
00:52:21,625 --> 00:52:23,583
cheat some of the lie detector

1578
00:52:23,583 --> 00:52:26,291
technologies we have available these days

1579
00:52:26,291 --> 00:52:28,000
so the that's another

1580
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,958
aspect people claim to have seen something crazy that they can't explain UFO or something like that

1581
00:52:32,291 --> 00:52:37,791
they claim they seem some sort of a being

1582
00:52:37,791 --> 00:52:39,458
i really think and this has been done

1583
00:52:39,458 --> 00:52:40,583
already of course to

1584
00:52:40,583 --> 00:52:43,791
multiple witnesses but i think we i think

1585
00:52:43,791 --> 00:52:45,708
that we should make more

1586
00:52:45,708 --> 00:52:47,791
use as long as you know people

1587
00:52:47,791 --> 00:52:51,125
are okay with it witnesses more use of

1588
00:52:51,125 --> 00:52:52,375
technologies we have like like the

1589
00:52:52,375 --> 00:52:54,166
polygraph and other forms of

1590
00:52:54,166 --> 00:52:56,250
of lie and deception detection because

1591
00:52:56,250 --> 00:52:57,208
they're actually really

1592
00:52:57,208 --> 00:52:57,833
good they're more than you know

1593
00:52:57,833 --> 00:52:59,875
99 point something percent effect they're not they're not they're not they're not they're not more than you know 99 point there's

1594
00:52:59,875 --> 00:53:00,666
something percent effect

1595
00:53:00,666 --> 00:53:02,291
they're not it's not a coin toss

1596
00:53:02,291 --> 00:53:04,375
it's not like it's 5050 so we've got

1597
00:53:04,375 --> 00:53:06,416
we've got technologies where

1598
00:53:06,416 --> 00:53:07,708
even so this is very different

1599
00:53:07,708 --> 00:53:09,916
than remote sensing even if we focus on

1600
00:53:09,916 --> 00:53:11,416
on witnesses there are

1601
00:53:11,416 --> 00:53:13,375
ways to determine with a

1602
00:53:13,375 --> 00:53:16,583
very high level of scientific certainty

1603
00:53:16,583 --> 00:53:17,958
whether people at least it

1604
00:53:17,958 --> 00:53:18,916
doesn't prove they saw what

1605
00:53:18,916 --> 00:53:20,833
they saw but at least test whether they

1606
00:53:20,833 --> 00:53:21,875
believe what they're

1607
00:53:21,875 --> 00:53:23,458
saying and that helps eliminate

1608
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:25,875
people who are just in uap is trying to

1609
00:53:25,875 --> 00:53:27,333
get famous versus people

1610
00:53:27,333 --> 00:53:29,208
who have actually witnessed

1611
00:53:29,208 --> 00:53:30,458
something they can't explain so there are

1612
00:53:30,458 --> 00:53:31,416
a lot of different ways we

1613
00:53:31,416 --> 00:53:34,000
can tackle tackle this problem

1614
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,375
have you experienced any stigma related

1615
00:53:36,375 --> 00:53:38,666
to your interest in this topic

1616
00:53:38,666 --> 00:53:41,666
professionally or personally i i have but

1617
00:53:41,666 --> 00:53:44,083
i'm very lucky because i

1618
00:53:44,083 --> 00:53:45,291
think the stigma is greatly

1619
00:53:45,291 --> 00:53:48,041
reduced it's not gone but it's greatly

1620
00:53:48,041 --> 00:53:50,291
reduced and it's reduced

1621
00:53:50,291 --> 00:53:52,166
because of the first excellent

1622
00:53:52,875 --> 00:53:54,583
journalistic work we've got people like

1623
00:53:54,583 --> 00:53:56,958
um leslie keen you know we had the the

1624
00:53:56,958 --> 00:53:58,041
famous new york times

1625
00:53:58,041 --> 00:54:00,875
article we have um lou elizondo coming

1626
00:54:00,875 --> 00:54:02,458
out and talking about

1627
00:54:02,458 --> 00:54:06,208
these things and the these

1628
00:54:06,208 --> 00:54:08,625
incidents reduce the stigma but don't

1629
00:54:08,625 --> 00:54:10,708
eliminate it completely so i've

1630
00:54:10,708 --> 00:54:15,041
definitely had um uh family

1631
00:54:15,041 --> 00:54:17,166
members laugh most are supportive don't

1632
00:54:17,166 --> 00:54:18,500
get me wrong but there will

1633
00:54:18,500 --> 00:54:21,833
be a giggle or um from from

1634
00:54:22,333 --> 00:54:24,750
colleagues in my department as well much

1635
00:54:24,750 --> 00:54:26,250
worse for for my i'm sure

1636
00:54:26,250 --> 00:54:27,875
for my friend kevin a canooth

1637
00:54:27,875 --> 00:54:30,125
who's been doing this uh for longer than

1638
00:54:30,125 --> 00:54:32,708
i have but there's definitely still

1639
00:54:32,708 --> 00:54:34,375
stigma but that being

1640
00:54:34,375 --> 00:54:36,583
said i still consider myself lucky

1641
00:54:36,583 --> 00:54:38,666
because i feel like decades ago it was

1642
00:54:38,666 --> 00:54:40,166
much worse i'm sure it was

1643
00:54:40,166 --> 00:54:42,333
much much worse for people like uh jail

1644
00:54:42,333 --> 00:54:44,458
and heineck for example

1645
00:54:44,458 --> 00:54:46,875
probably had um a heck of a time at

1646
00:54:47,125 --> 00:54:49,750
their home institution home department so

1647
00:54:49,750 --> 00:54:51,333
i consider myself lucky

1648
00:54:51,333 --> 00:54:53,791
that i have mostly supportive

1649
00:54:53,791 --> 00:54:56,166
colleagues and supportive family the the

1650
00:54:56,166 --> 00:54:58,000
giggle factor is has become

1651
00:54:58,000 --> 00:54:59,666
the exception where it used

1652
00:54:59,666 --> 00:55:02,083
to be the rule and it used to be that the

1653
00:55:02,083 --> 00:55:03,500
exception was that that it

1654
00:55:03,500 --> 00:55:06,416
would be okay interesting um is

1655
00:55:06,416 --> 00:55:07,875
this something you've engaged with your

1656
00:55:07,875 --> 00:55:09,750
students at all i have and

1657
00:55:09,750 --> 00:55:12,000
my students are are um way

1658
00:55:12,333 --> 00:55:16,791
open-minded than any people um my age or

1659
00:55:16,791 --> 00:55:18,666
older and i think that's

1660
00:55:18,666 --> 00:55:19,916
great because that gives me

1661
00:55:19,916 --> 00:55:23,500
hope for the future and and so i have

1662
00:55:23,500 --> 00:55:27,750
very it's very rare that i would have

1663
00:55:27,750 --> 00:55:28,708
that i would encounter

1664
00:55:28,708 --> 00:55:32,166
student who's not immediately fascinated

1665
00:55:32,166 --> 00:55:35,000
by the topic very rarely

1666
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:39,041
our students as um as uh as as

1667
00:55:39,708 --> 00:55:43,708
uh a skeptical as uh as as scientists in

1668
00:55:43,708 --> 00:55:45,916
general or as as uh you

1669
00:55:45,916 --> 00:55:47,416
know i was i was about to say

1670
00:55:47,416 --> 00:55:49,291
adults in general college students are

1671
00:55:49,291 --> 00:55:50,083
adults but you know what i

1672
00:55:50,083 --> 00:55:51,625
mean you know people who have

1673
00:55:51,625 --> 00:55:53,875
established careers do you think that's

1674
00:55:53,875 --> 00:55:55,125
our natural state and

1675
00:55:55,125 --> 00:55:56,458
something happens as we go

1676
00:55:56,458 --> 00:55:58,541
through the process we end up at a

1677
00:55:58,541 --> 00:56:02,208
degraded state or is is that a sense of

1678
00:56:02,208 --> 00:56:03,041
silliness or risk that

1679
00:56:03,208 --> 00:56:05,916
they're taking that they'll grow out of

1680
00:56:05,916 --> 00:56:07,833
for the better do you think

1681
00:56:07,833 --> 00:56:10,000
well i i don't think growing

1682
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:11,833
out of it for the better is a good thing

1683
00:56:11,833 --> 00:56:13,416
because even if even if

1684
00:56:13,416 --> 00:56:15,708
let's say i don't think this is

1685
00:56:15,708 --> 00:56:17,583
the case but let's say all of uap it's

1686
00:56:17,583 --> 00:56:18,916
all nonsense i don't think that's the

1687
00:56:18,916 --> 00:56:20,166
case is your experience

1688
00:56:20,166 --> 00:56:22,583
is experience of of gary verise and kevin

1689
00:56:22,583 --> 00:56:23,916
day and so many others but

1690
00:56:23,916 --> 00:56:25,041
let's for the sake of argument

1691
00:56:25,041 --> 00:56:26,666
say it's all nonsense and people should

1692
00:56:26,666 --> 00:56:27,625
grow out of it for the

1693
00:56:27,625 --> 00:56:29,583
better no because i think that it

1694
00:56:29,875 --> 00:56:32,041
can fire the imagination in the same way

1695
00:56:32,041 --> 00:56:33,875
that fiction does so for

1696
00:56:33,875 --> 00:56:36,541
example let's say either uap

1697
00:56:36,541 --> 00:56:38,583
does nothing interesting or let's say it

1698
00:56:38,583 --> 00:56:39,875
is interesting but let's

1699
00:56:39,875 --> 00:56:42,750
say it's a natural phenomenon

1700
00:56:42,750 --> 00:56:44,583
and there are no alien spacecraft for

1701
00:56:44,583 --> 00:56:47,000
example that doesn't matter

1702
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:48,541
because this is how i i've

1703
00:56:48,541 --> 00:56:52,166
often concluded talks i've given um with

1704
00:56:52,166 --> 00:56:53,750
with kevin on our uapx

1705
00:56:53,750 --> 00:56:54,791
preliminary results is on our

1706
00:56:55,291 --> 00:56:56,833
concluding side we say look even if this

1707
00:56:56,833 --> 00:56:59,208
is all nonsense we want to

1708
00:56:59,208 --> 00:57:01,291
inspire the next generation of

1709
00:57:01,291 --> 00:57:03,583
scientists engineers even coming up um

1710
00:57:03,583 --> 00:57:05,666
underneath us underneath and me too

1711
00:57:05,666 --> 00:57:07,375
because what if there's

1712
00:57:07,375 --> 00:57:10,166
no what if um there are no alien

1713
00:57:10,166 --> 00:57:12,500
wormholes or warp drives things like that

1714
00:57:12,500 --> 00:57:15,541
but what if by trying to

1715
00:57:15,541 --> 00:57:18,750
find aliens doing these things wormholes

1716
00:57:18,750 --> 00:57:21,125
warp drives what if we

1717
00:57:21,125 --> 00:57:23,041
inspire human scientist engineers

1718
00:57:23,375 --> 00:57:26,000
to create those technologies and so it's

1719
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:27,708
still a worthwhile endeavor

1720
00:57:27,708 --> 00:57:29,791
but i think u.s is a people

1721
00:57:29,791 --> 00:57:31,416
something people grow out of i think

1722
00:57:31,416 --> 00:57:33,416
that's part of it but i think there's

1723
00:57:33,416 --> 00:57:34,583
another part which is

1724
00:57:34,583 --> 00:57:36,833
there is a natural progression also of

1725
00:57:36,833 --> 00:57:39,000
humanity from generation to generation

1726
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:41,041
where each generation

1727
00:57:41,041 --> 00:57:44,541
is um open to more things you can see

1728
00:57:44,541 --> 00:57:46,500
this it's not just science

1729
00:57:46,500 --> 00:57:47,208
you can see this you know in

1730
00:57:47,875 --> 00:57:50,125
religion in morals and ethics things that

1731
00:57:50,125 --> 00:57:52,208
used to be you know we

1732
00:57:52,208 --> 00:57:53,791
wouldn't talk about them decades

1733
00:57:53,791 --> 00:57:56,833
ago are now accepted parts of our society

1734
00:57:56,833 --> 00:57:59,500
you can see this with um lgbtq and

1735
00:57:59,500 --> 00:58:00,458
advancements on that

1736
00:58:00,458 --> 00:58:02,625
front where you know we didn't talk about

1737
00:58:02,625 --> 00:58:04,708
it you know decades ago and

1738
00:58:04,708 --> 00:58:05,916
then the sort of the sphere

1739
00:58:05,916 --> 00:58:08,250
of human rights keeps expanding i think

1740
00:58:08,250 --> 00:58:09,458
that the same thing sort of

1741
00:58:09,458 --> 00:58:11,000
happens in science so it's not

1742
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:12,583
just you know kids are curious and then

1743
00:58:12,583 --> 00:58:14,125
they end up you know

1744
00:58:14,125 --> 00:58:15,208
becoming you know hard you know then

1745
00:58:15,416 --> 00:58:17,625
they get their job and then they lose the

1746
00:58:17,625 --> 00:58:18,708
magic of childhood that's

1747
00:58:18,708 --> 00:58:20,583
part of it but i think another

1748
00:58:20,583 --> 00:58:24,041
part uh an opposite force of that is

1749
00:58:24,041 --> 00:58:26,875
every generation becomes

1750
00:58:26,875 --> 00:58:28,083
slightly more open-minded

1751
00:58:28,083 --> 00:58:30,666
at least i hope so and that gives me hope

1752
00:58:30,666 --> 00:58:32,083
for the future of humanity

1753
00:58:32,083 --> 00:58:34,500
it's not a perfect process i'm

1754
00:58:34,500 --> 00:58:36,541
not saying that it's a linear process i'm

1755
00:58:36,541 --> 00:58:37,958
not claiming that i'm sure

1756
00:58:37,958 --> 00:58:38,791
there are some cases where

1757
00:58:39,041 --> 00:58:41,166
we take we take three steps forward two

1758
00:58:41,166 --> 00:58:43,125
steps back things like that but i think

1759
00:58:43,125 --> 00:58:45,833
as a general process

1760
00:58:45,833 --> 00:58:48,541
each younger generation on average again

1761
00:58:48,541 --> 00:58:50,500
you can always find outliers

1762
00:58:50,500 --> 00:58:52,416
but i think that on average

1763
00:58:52,416 --> 00:58:54,583
we're becoming slowly more open-minded

1764
00:58:54,583 --> 00:58:56,458
and i think that's what i'm

1765
00:58:56,458 --> 00:58:59,500
seeing in my classrooms so it's

1766
00:58:59,500 --> 00:59:01,416
it's encouraging for me to hear you say

1767
00:59:01,416 --> 00:59:03,333
that about the younger generation but

1768
00:59:03,333 --> 00:59:04,083
academia of course is

1769
00:59:04,458 --> 00:59:09,125
ruled by an older class of professors

1770
00:59:09,125 --> 00:59:12,500
whatnot so i have seen a somewhat unique

1771
00:59:12,500 --> 00:59:13,083
i support everything

1772
00:59:13,083 --> 00:59:14,333
you just said about the younger

1773
00:59:14,333 --> 00:59:16,500
generation being more open to this i have

1774
00:59:16,500 --> 00:59:19,500
seen a cohort of um of

1775
00:59:19,500 --> 00:59:22,916
of older people who are engaging this and

1776
00:59:22,916 --> 00:59:24,583
they're engaging it from a

1777
00:59:24,583 --> 00:59:25,625
manner of this was something i

1778
00:59:25,625 --> 00:59:27,250
was interested in when i was a kid this

1779
00:59:27,250 --> 00:59:28,250
is something that was

1780
00:59:28,250 --> 00:59:29,041
presented to me in a different

1781
00:59:29,416 --> 00:59:32,000
light and then it went away and it went

1782
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:33,333
away in the public's

1783
00:59:33,333 --> 00:59:34,500
fear to a certain degree but

1784
00:59:34,500 --> 00:59:37,041
didn't necessarily go away for them they

1785
00:59:37,041 --> 00:59:38,458
continued on and now they

1786
00:59:38,458 --> 00:59:40,416
see this as potentially an

1787
00:59:40,416 --> 00:59:43,333
opportunity to reinvigorate that interest

1788
00:59:43,333 --> 00:59:45,208
and that potential that

1789
00:59:45,208 --> 00:59:46,375
they they saw when they were

1790
00:59:46,375 --> 00:59:48,250
younger so i have seen a bit of that

1791
00:59:48,250 --> 00:59:49,708
cohort but to the larger

1792
00:59:49,708 --> 00:59:53,291
point academia it does does have

1793
00:59:53,750 --> 00:59:56,833
age at the top so how do we get academia

1794
00:59:56,833 --> 00:59:58,041
to be more open to

1795
00:59:58,041 --> 01:00:01,458
these ideas and to integrate

1796
01:00:01,458 --> 01:00:03,916
into into what is slightly a gatekeeping

1797
01:00:03,916 --> 01:00:05,416
type situation where uap

1798
01:00:05,416 --> 01:00:06,708
is considered essentially

1799
01:00:06,708 --> 01:00:09,916
a low-class study if you will um by the

1800
01:00:09,916 --> 01:00:10,791
people at these

1801
01:00:10,791 --> 01:00:12,500
institutions how do we bridge that gap

1802
01:00:12,500 --> 01:00:14,625
the younger generation is interested in

1803
01:00:14,625 --> 01:00:15,833
certain professionals are getting

1804
01:00:15,833 --> 01:00:16,541
interested in that have

1805
01:00:16,541 --> 01:00:18,666
done the background on it how do we bring

1806
01:00:18,666 --> 01:00:20,666
that to the wider cohort i

1807
01:00:20,666 --> 01:00:21,291
think there's several ways to

1808
01:00:21,541 --> 01:00:26,416
do that one is um that there needs to be

1809
01:00:26,416 --> 01:00:28,041
funding mechanisms so it

1810
01:00:28,041 --> 01:00:30,208
sounds very cynical but if a

1811
01:00:30,208 --> 01:00:31,833
young professor if a professor is

1812
01:00:31,833 --> 01:00:34,708
bringing money to study uap their

1813
01:00:34,708 --> 01:00:36,083
colleagues will laugh but the

1814
01:00:36,083 --> 01:00:38,250
university administration will not laugh

1815
01:00:38,250 --> 01:00:40,375
if they're bringing in cash so i know

1816
01:00:40,375 --> 01:00:42,083
it's a terrible cynical

1817
01:00:42,083 --> 01:00:44,541
thing to say but it is true that if there

1818
01:00:44,541 --> 01:00:46,416
was a mechanism so in my

1819
01:00:46,416 --> 01:00:47,208
research in dark matter for

1820
01:00:47,875 --> 01:00:51,333
example i my colleague professor sasilia

1821
01:00:51,333 --> 01:00:52,958
levi and i we have we have

1822
01:00:52,958 --> 01:00:55,333
like a million dollar plus grant

1823
01:00:55,333 --> 01:00:57,458
so you know you know who's gonna no one's

1824
01:00:57,458 --> 01:00:58,958
gonna laugh at that and so

1825
01:00:58,958 --> 01:01:00,083
the same thing if there were

1826
01:01:00,083 --> 01:01:02,583
if there's money in uap study but the

1827
01:01:02,583 --> 01:01:05,375
problem is then as you said you have to

1828
01:01:05,375 --> 01:01:07,750
convince um an older

1829
01:01:07,750 --> 01:01:09,541
maybe more like scientifically

1830
01:01:09,541 --> 01:01:11,000
conservative community that

1831
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:12,541
it's worth spending money on

1832
01:01:12,541 --> 01:01:14,125
because then the criticism is oh it's a

1833
01:01:14,125 --> 01:01:15,583
waste of time because it's

1834
01:01:15,583 --> 01:01:16,500
nonsense why we're gonna spend

1835
01:01:16,791 --> 01:01:19,416
money on it zero-sum game yeah yeah there

1836
01:01:19,416 --> 01:01:21,333
is finite resources so

1837
01:01:21,333 --> 01:01:23,208
if you spend money on that

1838
01:01:23,208 --> 01:01:25,416
then that must mean some other scientific

1839
01:01:25,416 --> 01:01:25,875
endeavor is not going

1840
01:01:25,875 --> 01:01:26,750
to get money and then you

1841
01:01:26,750 --> 01:01:28,166
say why are we wasting money on this

1842
01:01:28,166 --> 01:01:29,083
pseudoscientific thing

1843
01:01:29,083 --> 01:01:30,583
of ufo's when there's real

1844
01:01:30,583 --> 01:01:32,375
science to be done so that's why i'm

1845
01:01:32,375 --> 01:01:34,375
saying that's only part of the answer

1846
01:01:34,375 --> 01:01:35,416
because funding that's

1847
01:01:35,416 --> 01:01:37,458
just going to magically happen we as you

1848
01:01:37,458 --> 01:01:38,750
said it's a zero-sum game

1849
01:01:38,750 --> 01:01:40,500
we have finite resources

1850
01:01:40,500 --> 01:01:43,000
we're barely we don't have enough money

1851
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:44,208
in this country or

1852
01:01:44,208 --> 01:01:45,208
anywhere in the world to do

1853
01:01:46,041 --> 01:01:48,041
all of the mainstream science topics we

1854
01:01:48,041 --> 01:01:49,333
have to do dark matter is

1855
01:01:49,333 --> 01:01:51,000
is underfunded everything's

1856
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:53,166
underfunded and so it's a hard case to

1857
01:01:53,166 --> 01:01:54,625
make so other things

1858
01:01:54,625 --> 01:01:57,416
that have to happen is um

1859
01:01:57,416 --> 01:02:00,958
is people um i i've said this on multiple

1860
01:02:00,958 --> 01:02:03,000
podcasts already older more

1861
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:03,916
conservative generation just

1862
01:02:03,916 --> 01:02:07,083
needs to retire or die or both it's just

1863
01:02:07,083 --> 01:02:08,000
part of the natural

1864
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:09,333
progression i said is then younger

1865
01:02:09,333 --> 01:02:12,583
people who are more open-minded take over

1866
01:02:12,583 --> 01:02:14,291
faculty positions and

1867
01:02:14,291 --> 01:02:14,958
become editors of journals

1868
01:02:15,583 --> 01:02:19,208
journals and and a third aspect of how to

1869
01:02:19,208 --> 01:02:20,708
address this which none of

1870
01:02:20,708 --> 01:02:22,375
the things i'm suggesting are

1871
01:02:22,375 --> 01:02:24,583
all are gonna fix it entirely that

1872
01:02:24,583 --> 01:02:25,958
because anyone that's a tough question

1873
01:02:25,958 --> 01:02:26,791
yeah it's a tough problem

1874
01:02:26,791 --> 01:02:29,500
to solve but one more one last idea i

1875
01:02:29,500 --> 01:02:33,208
have on what could help is um is is

1876
01:02:33,208 --> 01:02:34,375
maintaining of academic

1877
01:02:34,375 --> 01:02:36,625
freedom because you pointed out um how

1878
01:02:36,625 --> 01:02:39,750
things can can end up um you

1879
01:02:39,750 --> 01:02:41,125
end up being stuck you know in

1880
01:02:41,458 --> 01:02:43,875
your in your sort of track of scientific

1881
01:02:43,875 --> 01:02:45,083
dogma and sort of stuck in

1882
01:02:45,083 --> 01:02:46,958
a rut academic freedom is

1883
01:02:46,958 --> 01:02:49,500
very important and where that comes from

1884
01:02:49,500 --> 01:02:50,833
is tenure basically the

1885
01:02:50,833 --> 01:02:52,166
inability to not get the

1886
01:02:52,166 --> 01:02:53,250
inability to get fired because then you

1887
01:02:53,250 --> 01:02:54,916
can work on whatever you want

1888
01:02:54,916 --> 01:02:56,375
and there are many states in

1889
01:02:56,375 --> 01:02:58,083
the country they're starting to try to

1890
01:02:58,083 --> 01:03:01,625
like um repeal or remove that

1891
01:03:01,625 --> 01:03:03,208
and i think that's extremely

1892
01:03:03,208 --> 01:03:04,166
dangerous because it's one of the

1893
01:03:04,166 --> 01:03:06,291
bedrocks of a free society

1894
01:03:06,291 --> 01:03:08,416
is that the in the in academia

1895
01:03:09,250 --> 01:03:11,208
um and what most people don't realize is

1896
01:03:11,208 --> 01:03:12,666
that the protections of

1897
01:03:12,666 --> 01:03:15,500
academic freedom go all directions

1898
01:03:15,500 --> 01:03:19,500
for example a liberal professor can stay

1899
01:03:19,500 --> 01:03:20,750
in the closet at a

1900
01:03:20,750 --> 01:03:22,166
conservative school conservative

1901
01:03:22,166 --> 01:03:24,125
professor can stay in the conservative

1902
01:03:24,125 --> 01:03:25,083
closet until they get

1903
01:03:25,083 --> 01:03:26,375
tenure at a liberal school and be

1904
01:03:26,375 --> 01:03:28,916
like haha i'm conservative too late you

1905
01:03:28,916 --> 01:03:31,541
can't fire me so like it's tenure is

1906
01:03:31,541 --> 01:03:33,000
crucial and it's under

1907
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:34,875
attack in many different in many

1908
01:03:34,875 --> 01:03:37,291
different places and basically there are

1909
01:03:37,291 --> 01:03:38,166
a lot of critics like

1910
01:03:38,583 --> 01:03:40,916
oh and if you can't get fired you'll be

1911
01:03:40,916 --> 01:03:42,583
lazy now do your job of

1912
01:03:42,583 --> 01:03:43,958
course there are downsides but

1913
01:03:43,958 --> 01:03:46,625
there's massive upsides like i can go

1914
01:03:46,625 --> 01:03:50,250
work on uaps and i can't get fired that's

1915
01:03:50,250 --> 01:03:51,875
enormous and if that

1916
01:03:51,875 --> 01:03:54,291
continues that's going to help because as

1917
01:03:54,291 --> 01:03:57,041
long as is that as the tenure system

1918
01:03:57,041 --> 01:03:58,375
continues then that's

1919
01:03:58,375 --> 01:04:00,250
going to help because it means that

1920
01:04:00,250 --> 01:04:02,416
professors once they can't get fired

1921
01:04:02,416 --> 01:04:04,250
anymore can go work on uap

1922
01:04:05,416 --> 01:04:07,166
and you know they self teach their

1923
01:04:07,166 --> 01:04:08,750
classes and the other aspects of their

1924
01:04:08,750 --> 01:04:10,000
job but at least don't

1925
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:11,750
they don't need to worry about getting

1926
01:04:11,750 --> 01:04:13,625
fired and i think that's

1927
01:04:13,625 --> 01:04:15,916
really going to help drive things

1928
01:04:15,916 --> 01:04:17,791
like uap research forward and that's

1929
01:04:17,791 --> 01:04:19,166
already happening as i said

1930
01:04:19,166 --> 01:04:20,541
but there's this there's a

1931
01:04:20,541 --> 01:04:24,041
lot of um criticism against the the

1932
01:04:24,041 --> 01:04:26,125
tenure system academia right now but i

1933
01:04:26,125 --> 01:04:27,666
think it it's goods out

1934
01:04:27,666 --> 01:04:30,500
the good of it outweighs the bad we're

1935
01:04:30,500 --> 01:04:31,541
looking for something as

1936
01:04:31,541 --> 01:04:33,125
anomalous in the sky and i think

1937
01:04:33,416 --> 01:04:34,833
we understand that there's a few buckets

1938
01:04:34,833 --> 01:04:36,250
that that could fall into

1939
01:04:36,250 --> 01:04:37,000
and we're not necessarily

1940
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:38,500
at a point where we can draw a conclusion

1941
01:04:38,500 --> 01:04:41,208
about what they are but

1942
01:04:41,208 --> 01:04:43,750
of course there there's

1943
01:04:43,750 --> 01:04:46,416
hypothesis and there's some popular

1944
01:04:46,416 --> 01:04:47,416
culture talk about aliens

1945
01:04:47,416 --> 01:04:49,250
and things of that nature

1946
01:04:49,250 --> 01:04:52,083
you know where are we it sounds crazy to

1947
01:04:52,083 --> 01:04:53,083
think about

1948
01:04:53,083 --> 01:04:56,083
spaceships in our sky but if we

1949
01:04:56,250 --> 01:04:59,625
you know forget about our local

1950
01:04:59,625 --> 01:05:00,875
neighborhood here and we kind

1951
01:05:00,875 --> 01:05:03,916
of look far out into universe

1952
01:05:03,916 --> 01:05:06,125
where are we on our understanding of of

1953
01:05:06,125 --> 01:05:08,833
life in the universe have

1954
01:05:08,833 --> 01:05:10,208
we updated the drake equation

1955
01:05:10,208 --> 01:05:14,208
at all lately what's what's what's your

1956
01:05:14,208 --> 01:05:16,291
thoughts on on whether

1957
01:05:16,291 --> 01:05:17,666
intelligent life is feasible

1958
01:05:17,666 --> 01:05:21,041
elsewhere in the universe so yeah i'm i'm

1959
01:05:21,041 --> 01:05:22,708
100 not an idea i'm putting

1960
01:05:22,708 --> 01:05:24,250
something i'm 100 convinced

1961
01:05:24,500 --> 01:05:27,833
we're not alone and in fact i think the

1962
01:05:27,833 --> 01:05:29,458
claim that we are alone

1963
01:05:29,458 --> 01:05:31,333
which is a valid claim to make

1964
01:05:31,333 --> 01:05:34,333
i think that's extraordinary it's an

1965
01:05:34,333 --> 01:05:36,333
extraordinary hypothesis and it requires

1966
01:05:36,333 --> 01:05:37,458
extraordinary evidence

1967
01:05:37,458 --> 01:05:39,416
and all the evidence points the other

1968
01:05:39,416 --> 01:05:41,375
direction so that's why i i

1969
01:05:41,375 --> 01:05:44,208
think that um i think that

1970
01:05:44,208 --> 01:05:45,583
what evidence points in the other

1971
01:05:45,583 --> 01:05:48,708
direction oh so the the discoveries over

1972
01:05:48,708 --> 01:05:49,583
the last few decades of

1973
01:05:49,916 --> 01:05:52,333
exoplanets planets outside of our star

1974
01:05:52,333 --> 01:05:53,583
system when you and i

1975
01:05:53,583 --> 01:05:55,833
watched star trek next generation

1976
01:05:55,833 --> 01:05:57,833
um well it was it was a seven-year show

1977
01:05:57,833 --> 01:05:58,833
over the course of that

1978
01:05:58,833 --> 01:06:01,500
show most of the during most of

1979
01:06:01,500 --> 01:06:03,500
star trek you know how many other planets

1980
01:06:03,500 --> 01:06:04,625
we knew about outside our

1981
01:06:04,625 --> 01:06:08,375
system zero and then became one

1982
01:06:08,375 --> 01:06:10,333
one in the 90s or i think in the 80s

1983
01:06:10,333 --> 01:06:11,500
there might have been like a

1984
01:06:11,500 --> 01:06:12,541
preliminary zone in the 80s but

1985
01:06:12,541 --> 01:06:14,458
in the 90s when we finally we

1986
01:06:14,458 --> 01:06:16,000
conclusively found a planet outside of

1987
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:16,875
our system you know how many

1988
01:06:17,125 --> 01:06:20,375
we know of now several thousand and

1989
01:06:20,375 --> 01:06:22,083
that's only in a tiny patch of the sky

1990
01:06:22,083 --> 01:06:23,000
you extrapolate that to

1991
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:25,333
the entire milky way it's probably

1992
01:06:25,333 --> 01:06:26,291
trillions of planets in our

1993
01:06:26,291 --> 01:06:29,250
milky way and as far as we know

1994
01:06:29,250 --> 01:06:31,375
statistically something like 20 percent

1995
01:06:31,375 --> 01:06:32,583
so you're asking about updates to the

1996
01:06:32,583 --> 01:06:34,208
drake equation drake

1997
01:06:34,208 --> 01:06:37,916
equation started out as just um wild

1998
01:06:37,916 --> 01:06:39,875
guesses like i'm not

1999
01:06:39,875 --> 01:06:41,000
criticizing could you know start the

2000
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:43,416
beginning of that equation i just like

2001
01:06:43,416 --> 01:06:44,458
sure explain what it is

2002
01:06:44,458 --> 01:06:45,666
yeah so the the idea yeah

2003
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:47,541
for your listeners right the drake

2004
01:06:47,541 --> 01:06:50,000
equation is an attempt to estimate the

2005
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:51,250
number of intelligent

2006
01:06:51,250 --> 01:06:53,333
civilizations based on certain factors

2007
01:06:53,333 --> 01:06:54,625
off the top of my head i'm not going to

2008
01:06:54,625 --> 01:06:55,291
remember all of them

2009
01:06:55,291 --> 01:06:56,333
there's probably like there's more than

2010
01:06:56,333 --> 01:06:57,500
half a dozen but it's

2011
01:06:57,500 --> 01:06:58,833
things like you know how many

2012
01:06:58,833 --> 01:07:01,375
planets are there around stars how often

2013
01:07:01,375 --> 01:07:02,916
do they evolve intelligent

2014
01:07:02,916 --> 01:07:04,750
life things like that and when

2015
01:07:04,750 --> 01:07:06,750
drake first came up with his equation he

2016
01:07:06,750 --> 01:07:08,500
was an astronomer actually i

2017
01:07:08,500 --> 01:07:09,583
said was i i don't remember

2018
01:07:09,875 --> 01:07:12,250
if he he passed away recently or not but

2019
01:07:12,250 --> 01:07:14,125
uh but if he's still alive he's probably

2020
01:07:14,125 --> 01:07:16,875
very old um initially

2021
01:07:16,875 --> 01:07:18,333
and this is not a criticism i think you

2022
01:07:18,333 --> 01:07:19,250
know we didn't have

2023
01:07:19,250 --> 01:07:21,041
computers and things like that yet

2024
01:07:21,041 --> 01:07:24,041
all numbers were just wild guesses most

2025
01:07:24,041 --> 01:07:24,583
of the numbers in

2026
01:07:24,583 --> 01:07:26,125
drake occasion wild guesses

2027
01:07:26,125 --> 01:07:28,416
this is not the case anymore there's

2028
01:07:28,416 --> 01:07:30,500
still don't get me wrong massive

2029
01:07:30,500 --> 01:07:31,875
uncertainties people can still

2030
01:07:31,875 --> 01:07:33,708
argue but some of those numbers we're

2031
01:07:33,708 --> 01:07:35,041
starting to add data yeah

2032
01:07:35,041 --> 01:07:36,000
exactly we've got real data with

2033
01:07:36,541 --> 01:07:38,291
telescopes and so one of those things

2034
01:07:38,291 --> 01:07:39,958
that one of those factors in drake

2035
01:07:39,958 --> 01:07:41,125
equation that's no longer

2036
01:07:41,125 --> 01:07:44,000
a wild guess are the number of planets

2037
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:45,250
and the number of

2038
01:07:45,250 --> 01:07:47,833
potentially habitable planets and

2039
01:07:47,833 --> 01:07:50,958
remarkably this makes me really excited

2040
01:07:50,958 --> 01:07:53,625
even star trek wasn't

2041
01:07:53,625 --> 01:07:55,875
optimistic enough i used to laugh like

2042
01:07:55,875 --> 01:07:57,958
not just star trek next generation but

2043
01:07:57,958 --> 01:07:59,333
then um star trek voyager they're stuck

2044
01:07:59,333 --> 01:08:00,250
in the delta quadrant

2045
01:08:00,250 --> 01:08:02,708
and they're like there's a plan at every

2046
01:08:02,708 --> 01:08:04,625
episode and it's always m

2047
01:08:04,625 --> 01:08:05,458
class right as they call in star

2048
01:08:05,666 --> 01:08:08,166
trek they can always land they don't

2049
01:08:08,166 --> 01:08:10,833
never need space suits turns out star

2050
01:08:10,833 --> 01:08:12,208
trek wasn't optimistic

2051
01:08:12,208 --> 01:08:15,458
enough there are so many planets that we

2052
01:08:15,458 --> 01:08:17,333
think probably most stars

2053
01:08:17,333 --> 01:08:19,166
have planets around them so

2054
01:08:19,166 --> 01:08:21,291
instead of planets being the exception it

2055
01:08:21,291 --> 01:08:22,333
turns out they're the rule

2056
01:08:22,333 --> 01:08:23,666
they're planets everywhere

2057
01:08:23,666 --> 01:08:25,666
and that doesn't count moons asteroids

2058
01:08:25,666 --> 01:08:27,625
other bodies not only are

2059
01:08:27,625 --> 01:08:29,125
there planets everywhere

2060
01:08:29,125 --> 01:08:31,708
we grossly underestimated decades ago

2061
01:08:31,708 --> 01:08:32,541
when we're still arguing

2062
01:08:32,541 --> 01:08:33,291
about this without data we've

2063
01:08:33,875 --> 01:08:35,750
grossly underestimated the number of

2064
01:08:35,750 --> 01:08:37,958
habitable planets basically planets that

2065
01:08:37,958 --> 01:08:39,833
are in the so called

2066
01:08:39,833 --> 01:08:41,791
goldilocks zone in astronomy not too hot

2067
01:08:41,791 --> 01:08:43,833
not too cold where there's

2068
01:08:43,833 --> 01:08:46,375
probably liquid water oxygen

2069
01:08:46,375 --> 01:08:48,875
but that's only life as we know it right

2070
01:08:48,875 --> 01:08:50,416
and so if you count life

2071
01:08:50,416 --> 01:08:51,750
not as we know it what if life

2072
01:08:51,750 --> 01:08:54,583
doesn't need water and oxygen right then

2073
01:08:54,583 --> 01:08:56,708
there could be billions if

2074
01:08:56,708 --> 01:08:58,791
not trillions of worlds so

2075
01:08:59,083 --> 01:09:00,791
a separate question though and this is

2076
01:09:00,791 --> 01:09:03,208
the more difficult one is if there's

2077
01:09:03,208 --> 01:09:03,791
intelligent life can

2078
01:09:03,791 --> 01:09:07,708
it get here and that one is still hotly

2079
01:09:07,708 --> 01:09:09,333
debated even though i've

2080
01:09:09,333 --> 01:09:12,166
tried to i wrote um a medium

2081
01:09:12,166 --> 01:09:15,458
essay for uapx about this like i i think

2082
01:09:15,458 --> 01:09:17,541
it's pretty clear to me

2083
01:09:17,541 --> 01:09:19,375
interstellar travel is possible

2084
01:09:19,375 --> 01:09:22,125
but then people immediately start

2085
01:09:22,125 --> 01:09:24,666
attacking that no it's too hard the

2086
01:09:24,666 --> 01:09:26,500
distances are too great and

2087
01:09:26,833 --> 01:09:30,166
so i think that the probability of

2088
01:09:30,166 --> 01:09:34,250
intelligent life is nearly 100 but can it

2089
01:09:34,250 --> 01:09:36,500
can intelligent life

2090
01:09:36,500 --> 01:09:40,500
travel to other systems that is a much

2091
01:09:40,500 --> 01:09:42,500
trickier question i'm of the

2092
01:09:42,500 --> 01:09:44,333
opinion that it's that it's

2093
01:09:44,333 --> 01:09:47,791
easy but but but scientists can look me

2094
01:09:47,791 --> 01:09:49,500
in the eye in good faith and say i'm

2095
01:09:49,500 --> 01:09:50,083
wrong and then it's very

2096
01:09:50,541 --> 01:09:53,041
hard and there's room there for debate

2097
01:09:53,041 --> 01:09:55,083
and discussion but for the

2098
01:09:55,083 --> 01:09:57,083
probability of of of life

2099
01:09:57,083 --> 01:09:59,375
including intelligent life i think that's

2100
01:09:59,375 --> 01:10:01,416
very close to 100 given

2101
01:10:01,416 --> 01:10:02,500
the discoveries of the past

2102
01:10:02,500 --> 01:10:05,291
few decades 30 years ago we'd be having a

2103
01:10:05,291 --> 01:10:06,583
different conversation

2104
01:10:06,583 --> 01:10:08,833
because we had found only

2105
01:10:08,833 --> 01:10:11,000
one one planet outside of our solar

2106
01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:13,083
system so i i don't i

2107
01:10:13,083 --> 01:10:14,166
hesitate to speak for everyone but

2108
01:10:14,625 --> 01:10:18,041
uh generally i think the the spirit is

2109
01:10:18,041 --> 01:10:20,041
relatively festive and

2110
01:10:20,041 --> 01:10:21,708
excited about the discovery of these

2111
01:10:21,708 --> 01:10:24,750
exoplanets um there's no sensing no sense

2112
01:10:24,750 --> 01:10:25,875
of dread or anything of

2113
01:10:25,875 --> 01:10:27,500
that nature right yeah

2114
01:10:27,500 --> 01:10:28,958
that's exciting and great well there's

2115
01:10:28,958 --> 01:10:31,083
some dread steven hawking before he

2116
01:10:31,083 --> 01:10:31,916
passed away and i think

2117
01:10:31,916 --> 01:10:33,916
neil de gras tiches said as well they're

2118
01:10:33,916 --> 01:10:35,041
worried some advanced

2119
01:10:35,041 --> 01:10:36,791
civilization is gonna invade us and

2120
01:10:36,791 --> 01:10:39,416
kill us all so some scientists have have

2121
01:10:39,416 --> 01:10:41,750
a sense of dread um i don't i'm

2122
01:10:41,750 --> 01:10:42,541
optimistic so i join you

2123
01:10:42,833 --> 01:10:44,875
with that with that that mood even

2124
01:10:44,875 --> 01:10:45,666
generally speaking i think

2125
01:10:45,666 --> 01:10:46,833
if i went to a person in the

2126
01:10:46,833 --> 01:10:48,458
street they would think discovering that

2127
01:10:48,458 --> 01:10:51,083
is a cool and good thing and but when we

2128
01:10:51,083 --> 01:10:53,666
talk about potentially

2129
01:10:53,666 --> 01:10:55,583
zooming into where we are here and saying

2130
01:10:55,583 --> 01:10:57,041
there might be things

2131
01:10:57,041 --> 01:11:00,000
closer um that suddenly starts

2132
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:01,375
changing the conversation a bit and

2133
01:11:01,375 --> 01:11:02,500
making it less palatable

2134
01:11:02,500 --> 01:11:04,375
it suddenly becomes fantasy

2135
01:11:04,375 --> 01:11:07,375
suddenly becomes uh something that um you

2136
01:11:07,375 --> 01:11:08,750
respond to with laughter

2137
01:11:08,750 --> 01:11:10,875
yes um and you you distance

2138
01:11:11,291 --> 01:11:13,375
yourself from that person almost uh

2139
01:11:13,375 --> 01:11:16,250
psychologically yes what's the difference

2140
01:11:16,250 --> 01:11:17,416
the difference is is the

2141
01:11:17,416 --> 01:11:20,041
second half of of what i said because

2142
01:11:20,041 --> 01:11:22,000
it's still controversial

2143
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:24,333
whether life can travel the universe

2144
01:11:24,333 --> 01:11:25,916
easily and that's not just in the

2145
01:11:25,916 --> 01:11:26,583
scientific community like

2146
01:11:26,583 --> 01:11:28,041
you said it's everywhere in the

2147
01:11:28,041 --> 01:11:30,500
public so there's two separate things

2148
01:11:30,500 --> 01:11:32,583
there does life exist and

2149
01:11:32,583 --> 01:11:34,125
then there's a sub question there

2150
01:11:34,125 --> 01:11:35,916
intelligent life you know versus plants

2151
01:11:35,916 --> 01:11:37,166
you know non-intelligent

2152
01:11:37,166 --> 01:11:38,875
animals things like that versus

2153
01:11:39,250 --> 01:11:43,125
can it get here these are very separate

2154
01:11:43,125 --> 01:11:45,541
because it's almost like and

2155
01:11:45,541 --> 01:11:46,500
this is not just scientists

2156
01:11:46,500 --> 01:11:48,583
like the public you said it's cool are

2157
01:11:48,583 --> 01:11:49,625
there aliens oh they're

2158
01:11:49,625 --> 01:11:51,791
over there that's fine oh

2159
01:11:51,791 --> 01:11:53,458
they're so far away they'll never get

2160
01:11:53,458 --> 01:11:55,416
here that that's that's

2161
01:11:55,416 --> 01:11:58,000
okay but they're here suddenly

2162
01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:01,916
what happens is our ontological security

2163
01:12:01,916 --> 01:12:02,875
is threatened that's

2164
01:12:02,875 --> 01:12:03,916
what Alexander professor

2165
01:12:04,500 --> 01:12:06,041
Alexander Wendt calls it he's talked

2166
01:12:06,041 --> 01:12:07,833
about you know UAPs and

2167
01:12:07,833 --> 01:12:09,666
he's asked the tough question

2168
01:12:09,666 --> 01:12:11,416
could some of them actually be non-human

2169
01:12:11,416 --> 01:12:12,125
craft he's actually

2170
01:12:12,125 --> 01:12:13,666
asked that tough question

2171
01:12:13,666 --> 01:12:15,541
and he says that this threatens our

2172
01:12:15,541 --> 01:12:17,333
ontological security so what

2173
01:12:17,333 --> 01:12:18,666
that means is humanity is no

2174
01:12:18,666 --> 01:12:21,625
longer top dog and that scares the hell

2175
01:12:21,625 --> 01:12:23,916
out of us when it shouldn't

2176
01:12:23,916 --> 01:12:25,208
scientists of all people should

2177
01:12:25,208 --> 01:12:28,125
know history shows we're never top dog

2178
01:12:28,125 --> 01:12:29,166
this is called the you know the

2179
01:12:29,166 --> 01:12:30,083
Copernican principle we

2180
01:12:30,375 --> 01:12:31,833
found out we're not at the center of the

2181
01:12:31,833 --> 01:12:33,000
universe and we seem to

2182
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:34,625
learn that over and over again

2183
01:12:34,625 --> 01:12:36,375
and that used to be a religious thing but

2184
01:12:36,375 --> 01:12:38,416
now it's a scientific thing now

2185
01:12:38,416 --> 01:12:39,208
scientists are afraid of

2186
01:12:39,208 --> 01:12:41,375
not being top dog now it's no longer you

2187
01:12:41,375 --> 01:12:42,708
know the priests and bishops

2188
01:12:42,708 --> 01:12:44,041
who are like oh you can't you

2189
01:12:44,041 --> 01:12:45,625
know now you know they're telling us

2190
01:12:45,625 --> 01:12:47,583
humans you know humans are sinners

2191
01:12:47,583 --> 01:12:48,500
meanwhile scientists are

2192
01:12:48,500 --> 01:12:51,666
like oh humans are awesome we're the best

2193
01:12:51,666 --> 01:12:52,458
we figure we're gonna

2194
01:12:52,458 --> 01:12:54,000
figure everything out when

2195
01:12:54,333 --> 01:12:56,500
I think that's bad that's like that's

2196
01:12:56,500 --> 01:12:58,708
what religious dogma used

2197
01:12:58,708 --> 01:13:00,166
to do and still does in some

2198
01:13:00,166 --> 01:13:02,166
cases but now it's the scientists who are

2199
01:13:02,166 --> 01:13:04,250
afraid of not being top dog

2200
01:13:04,250 --> 01:13:05,541
so I think that's the answer

2201
01:13:05,541 --> 01:13:08,333
to your question we are so afraid that if

2202
01:13:08,333 --> 01:13:10,250
there's something else a

2203
01:13:10,250 --> 01:13:13,125
non-human intelligent species

2204
01:13:13,125 --> 01:13:17,125
we are not ready to no longer be the

2205
01:13:17,125 --> 01:13:18,875
pinnacle of if you're

2206
01:13:18,875 --> 01:13:20,166
religious pinnacle of creation or

2207
01:13:20,708 --> 01:13:24,041
pinnacle of evolution we're afraid and I

2208
01:13:24,041 --> 01:13:26,916
personally embrace that I would love to

2209
01:13:26,916 --> 01:13:28,541
meet aliens that are

2210
01:13:28,541 --> 01:13:29,791
smarter than humans think of what we

2211
01:13:29,791 --> 01:13:31,791
could learn I don't have any

2212
01:13:31,791 --> 01:13:33,958
problem with meeting non-human

2213
01:13:33,958 --> 01:13:37,458
entities I think it's I think it's great

2214
01:13:37,458 --> 01:13:39,166
that um that human wouldn't

2215
01:13:39,166 --> 01:13:41,000
be top dog do you think that

2216
01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:43,125
there's an analogy between the emotions

2217
01:13:43,125 --> 01:13:44,625
felt the fear felt about

2218
01:13:44,625 --> 01:13:46,708
the potential for AI as the

2219
01:13:47,291 --> 01:13:49,875
emotions that are felt for the potential

2220
01:13:49,875 --> 01:13:51,458
of extraterrestrials I

2221
01:13:51,458 --> 01:13:52,916
think they're very similar

2222
01:13:52,916 --> 01:13:56,458
with one major difference the the with

2223
01:13:56,458 --> 01:13:57,208
extraterrestrials is

2224
01:13:57,208 --> 01:13:58,791
worse because we feel we can't

2225
01:13:58,791 --> 01:14:01,916
control it with AI yes there are people

2226
01:14:01,916 --> 01:14:02,916
who say we can't control it

2227
01:14:02,916 --> 01:14:03,833
but there's a huge difference

2228
01:14:03,833 --> 01:14:06,916
we're making the AI right we're we're

2229
01:14:06,916 --> 01:14:08,000
still writing the code

2230
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:09,291
like we still don't have self

2231
01:14:09,291 --> 01:14:12,000
replicating robots and so it's a similar

2232
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:13,041
fear but I think the

2233
01:14:13,041 --> 01:14:14,416
extraterrestrial one's even worse

2234
01:14:14,833 --> 01:14:17,000
because it's something completely outside

2235
01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:18,583
of human control for AI

2236
01:14:18,583 --> 01:14:20,500
we feel like oh we'll pass

2237
01:14:20,500 --> 01:14:22,791
some laws and everything will be fine

2238
01:14:22,791 --> 01:14:24,000
again not saying that's the

2239
01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:25,416
case but I'm saying that's how

2240
01:14:25,416 --> 01:14:27,541
some people feel oh we'll just pass a few

2241
01:14:27,541 --> 01:14:28,500
laws and it'll be fine

2242
01:14:28,500 --> 01:14:29,625
whether we can or we can't

2243
01:14:29,625 --> 01:14:32,375
doesn't matter we believe we can exactly

2244
01:14:32,375 --> 01:14:33,250
exactly whereas with

2245
01:14:33,250 --> 01:14:34,791
extraterrestrials we know that's not

2246
01:14:34,791 --> 01:14:36,625
going to happen you're going to pass some

2247
01:14:36,625 --> 01:14:37,625
law against

2248
01:14:37,625 --> 01:14:39,125
extraterrestrials if we're they're here

2249
01:14:39,125 --> 01:14:40,708
they're here they have better tech than

2250
01:14:40,708 --> 01:14:42,500
us there is nothing we can

2251
01:14:42,500 --> 01:14:44,208
do about it whereas with AI

2252
01:14:44,750 --> 01:14:47,625
we can at least give ourselves a

2253
01:14:47,625 --> 01:14:49,458
comforting lie that oh

2254
01:14:49,458 --> 01:14:52,125
it'll be fine AI will be fine

2255
01:14:52,125 --> 01:14:54,416
but with extraterrestrials we can't even

2256
01:14:54,416 --> 01:14:56,791
run away to that comfort

2257
01:14:56,791 --> 01:15:01,125
we're asking people to process a lot of

2258
01:15:01,125 --> 01:15:03,041
potential information as

2259
01:15:03,041 --> 01:15:05,083
far as their you know their

2260
01:15:05,083 --> 01:15:08,000
ontological understanding what if we were

2261
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:09,666
to flip this the script a

2262
01:15:09,666 --> 01:15:11,500
little bit for you instead of

2263
01:15:11,833 --> 01:15:13,958
us potentially and I don't know how we do

2264
01:15:13,958 --> 01:15:15,375
it and that is irrelevant

2265
01:15:15,375 --> 01:15:17,583
but instead of you searching

2266
01:15:17,583 --> 01:15:20,583
for incontrovertible proof of something

2267
01:15:20,583 --> 01:15:22,583
anomalous that has high has a potential

2268
01:15:22,583 --> 01:15:24,291
to be extraterrestrial

2269
01:15:24,291 --> 01:15:25,750
what if you were looking and you found

2270
01:15:25,750 --> 01:15:28,541
incontrovertible proof

2271
01:15:28,541 --> 01:15:30,458
that there were no et

2272
01:15:30,458 --> 01:15:32,500
whatsoever how would how would you

2273
01:15:32,500 --> 01:15:34,833
attempt to integrate that that's a good

2274
01:15:34,833 --> 01:15:35,666
question but I'm not

2275
01:15:35,666 --> 01:15:37,166
I don't know how that's possible because

2276
01:15:37,166 --> 01:15:38,416
you can always say oh

2277
01:15:38,416 --> 01:15:39,458
there's some more disangalaxy don't

2278
01:15:39,708 --> 01:15:41,500
worry about if it's possible yeah but

2279
01:15:41,500 --> 01:15:42,583
it's just as a thought

2280
01:15:42,583 --> 01:15:44,750
exercise because it's that type of

2281
01:15:44,750 --> 01:15:46,500
shift in mindset that we're potentially

2282
01:15:46,500 --> 01:15:48,000
asking other people to go

2283
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:50,041
through yeah so I don't know

2284
01:15:50,041 --> 01:15:51,708
is there anything to be gained by going

2285
01:15:51,708 --> 01:15:52,583
through that thought

2286
01:15:52,583 --> 01:15:55,000
exercise I mean yeah it's that it's

2287
01:15:55,000 --> 01:15:57,333
a possibility even though I said earlier

2288
01:15:57,333 --> 01:15:59,333
I think it's a almost 100

2289
01:15:59,333 --> 01:16:01,250
that there's life out there

2290
01:16:01,250 --> 01:16:04,416
there is I don't think it's possible but

2291
01:16:04,416 --> 01:16:06,333
one could say what let's say let's

2292
01:16:06,333 --> 01:16:06,708
because you said let's

2293
01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:09,208
not worry about how that would happen so

2294
01:16:09,208 --> 01:16:10,333
let's hypothetically

2295
01:16:10,333 --> 01:16:12,458
speaking say it turns out the

2296
01:16:12,458 --> 01:16:15,291
probability of life forming is so

2297
01:16:15,291 --> 01:16:17,333
astronomically small again that's not

2298
01:16:17,333 --> 01:16:18,458
what biology currently

2299
01:16:18,458 --> 01:16:20,250
says that's what we used to think years

2300
01:16:20,250 --> 01:16:21,125
ago but we have the

2301
01:16:21,125 --> 01:16:22,916
opposite but let's say we're wrong

2302
01:16:22,916 --> 01:16:24,500
and it turns out what we thought 50 years

2303
01:16:24,500 --> 01:16:26,458
ago was correct and life is

2304
01:16:26,458 --> 01:16:28,875
very very rare and let's say

2305
01:16:28,875 --> 01:16:31,041
it turns out we are alone again so

2306
01:16:31,041 --> 01:16:33,000
improbable big universe and then how

2307
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:33,500
would you prove that but

2308
01:16:33,875 --> 01:16:37,291
putting that aside I think you're saying

2309
01:16:37,291 --> 01:16:38,666
how would I react or how

2310
01:16:38,666 --> 01:16:40,000
would people I guess I wonder you

2311
01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:42,291
know would you try to you know address

2312
01:16:42,291 --> 01:16:44,000
that through solutions of science or

2313
01:16:44,000 --> 01:16:44,833
would you address that

2314
01:16:44,833 --> 01:16:47,166
through solutions of perhaps religion or

2315
01:16:47,166 --> 01:16:50,041
something external to you know a

2316
01:16:50,041 --> 01:16:50,791
quantitative understanding

2317
01:16:50,791 --> 01:16:53,750
of the universe yeah I'm not sure what

2318
01:16:53,750 --> 01:16:54,666
science could do with that

2319
01:16:54,666 --> 01:16:55,583
right it changes things if

2320
01:16:55,916 --> 01:16:59,625
then humans are the only ones around that

2321
01:16:59,625 --> 01:17:03,416
would definitely it would

2322
01:17:03,416 --> 01:17:05,583
definitely that's a it's a

2323
01:17:05,583 --> 01:17:09,500
that's a lot of empty space I think it's

2324
01:17:09,500 --> 01:17:12,166
just for most people that

2325
01:17:12,166 --> 01:17:13,916
would be more comforting though

2326
01:17:13,916 --> 01:17:15,375
because we don't want to think about as

2327
01:17:15,375 --> 01:17:16,666
you said about other

2328
01:17:16,666 --> 01:17:18,541
other intelligent life forms

2329
01:17:18,541 --> 01:17:20,750
personally I would be it wouldn't be a

2330
01:17:20,750 --> 01:17:23,375
big paradigm shift for for me it would

2331
01:17:23,375 --> 01:17:24,000
just be disappointing

2332
01:17:25,166 --> 01:17:27,875
and so the but disappointment in

2333
01:17:27,875 --> 01:17:29,291
something that isn't real that's not

2334
01:17:29,291 --> 01:17:31,125
something science deals with

2335
01:17:31,125 --> 01:17:34,333
right that's more of a yeah that's more

2336
01:17:34,333 --> 01:17:35,916
philosophy as you said philosophy

2337
01:17:35,916 --> 01:17:37,250
religion ethics things like

2338
01:17:37,250 --> 01:17:39,791
that so much of science is based around

2339
01:17:39,791 --> 01:17:41,250
you know the median

2340
01:17:41,250 --> 01:17:43,833
we're not special necessarily

2341
01:17:43,833 --> 01:17:45,625
exactly that's the kapurnikin principle

2342
01:17:45,625 --> 01:17:47,083
certainly and this this would

2343
01:17:47,083 --> 01:17:48,666
flip that script on its head

2344
01:17:48,666 --> 01:17:50,208
and that's why I wonder you know if we

2345
01:17:50,208 --> 01:17:51,416
can use this exercise as a

2346
01:17:51,416 --> 01:17:52,000
way of perhaps understanding how

2347
01:17:52,916 --> 01:17:56,333
people that already interpret their place

2348
01:17:56,333 --> 01:17:57,750
in a potentially empty

2349
01:17:57,750 --> 01:17:59,250
universe what they would turn to

2350
01:17:59,250 --> 01:18:01,416
so can we make you know scientific

2351
01:18:01,416 --> 01:18:02,791
arguments to someone that's highly

2352
01:18:02,791 --> 01:18:03,833
religious that thanks to

2353
01:18:03,833 --> 01:18:05,250
universe is empty is that going to change

2354
01:18:05,250 --> 01:18:07,083
their mind no and I don't think we

2355
01:18:07,083 --> 01:18:08,000
necessarily have the

2356
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:09,375
answers to these but I think these are

2357
01:18:09,375 --> 01:18:11,250
some of the questions that socio

2358
01:18:11,250 --> 01:18:12,708
sociologists and other

2359
01:18:12,708 --> 01:18:15,666
you know professionals that can start to

2360
01:18:15,666 --> 01:18:17,166
engage and better

2361
01:18:17,166 --> 01:18:18,000
understand once we have you know more

2362
01:18:19,333 --> 01:18:23,541
broad buy-in from the academic community

2363
01:18:23,541 --> 01:18:25,208
I think yeah it's

2364
01:18:25,208 --> 01:18:28,291
really hard because you know

2365
01:18:28,291 --> 01:18:31,250
we don't have you know tv shoot tv show

2366
01:18:31,250 --> 01:18:32,291
news programs everyone

2367
01:18:32,291 --> 01:18:34,541
watches together everyone

2368
01:18:34,541 --> 01:18:36,708
goes and finds their echo chamber and so

2369
01:18:36,708 --> 01:18:37,375
it's really hard to

2370
01:18:37,375 --> 01:18:38,666
convince anyone of anything these

2371
01:18:38,666 --> 01:18:40,375
days because if you're liberal you watch

2372
01:18:40,375 --> 01:18:41,458
the liberal stuff if

2373
01:18:41,458 --> 01:18:42,125
you're conservative you watch

2374
01:18:42,125 --> 01:18:43,750
the conservative stuff you can ignore all

2375
01:18:43,750 --> 01:18:45,125
the other data and that's

2376
01:18:45,125 --> 01:18:45,666
really really bad and so

2377
01:18:46,500 --> 01:18:48,666
I think it would be really hard to

2378
01:18:48,666 --> 01:18:53,791
convince people in either direction of

2379
01:18:53,791 --> 01:18:55,083
you've you've been you know

2380
01:18:55,083 --> 01:18:58,041
for sure you know from your religion that

2381
01:18:58,041 --> 01:18:59,125
the universe is empty

2382
01:18:59,125 --> 01:19:01,083
and humans are all that is

2383
01:19:01,083 --> 01:19:04,041
or the opposite and how do you switch and

2384
01:19:04,041 --> 01:19:07,916
that's very very challenging

2385
01:19:07,916 --> 01:19:09,625
the way I would approach it

2386
01:19:09,625 --> 01:19:11,916
but this is only me other people I know

2387
01:19:11,916 --> 01:19:13,041
other scientists who just

2388
01:19:13,041 --> 01:19:14,541
give up but but me I wouldn't

2389
01:19:15,500 --> 01:19:17,916
have a problem talking to people for

2390
01:19:17,916 --> 01:19:22,208
example if if someone is deeply uh

2391
01:19:22,208 --> 01:19:22,916
concerned because they

2392
01:19:22,916 --> 01:19:26,916
thought humanity are top dog from a

2393
01:19:26,916 --> 01:19:28,333
religious perspective I'd

2394
01:19:28,333 --> 01:19:30,375
say hey you know didn't Jesus

2395
01:19:30,375 --> 01:19:32,875
say be humble like me so it's all about

2396
01:19:32,875 --> 01:19:34,125
humility so that's why there

2397
01:19:34,125 --> 01:19:35,750
are more advanced aliens to

2398
01:19:35,750 --> 01:19:38,208
teach you more humility there are ways

2399
01:19:38,208 --> 01:19:39,916
there are ways to discuss this in different contexts from

2400
01:19:40,875 --> 01:19:44,041
religious and ethical contexts but I'm

2401
01:19:44,041 --> 01:19:45,041
not saying it's not going

2402
01:19:45,041 --> 01:19:47,166
to be a very very difficult

2403
01:19:47,166 --> 01:19:49,958
challenge um but I do think you're trying

2404
01:19:49,958 --> 01:19:51,166
to make an analogy but I

2405
01:19:51,166 --> 01:19:52,750
don't think it's symmetric I think

2406
01:19:52,750 --> 01:19:55,375
it's easier for everybody including

2407
01:19:55,375 --> 01:19:57,916
science just accept humanities alone

2408
01:19:57,916 --> 01:19:59,458
that's fine for I think

2409
01:19:59,458 --> 01:20:01,541
literally everybody to accept but the

2410
01:20:01,541 --> 01:20:03,083
other direction just is so

2411
01:20:03,083 --> 01:20:03,750
much more so much more difficult

2412
01:20:04,125 --> 01:20:06,500
so much more difficult for for for many

2413
01:20:06,500 --> 01:20:09,000
people and I think the reason why is

2414
01:20:09,000 --> 01:20:10,416
because well that's all the

2415
01:20:10,416 --> 01:20:12,500
evidence we have so far as humanity is

2416
01:20:12,500 --> 01:20:16,041
alone where so the other the other um

2417
01:20:16,041 --> 01:20:17,791
direction is is a radical

2418
01:20:17,791 --> 01:20:19,166
shift because even though we have all

2419
01:20:19,166 --> 01:20:21,208
this evidence of exoplanets like I said

2420
01:20:21,208 --> 01:20:22,416
earlier that's not well

2421
01:20:22,416 --> 01:20:24,250
known by everybody you said people man on

2422
01:20:24,250 --> 01:20:25,250
the streets excited by

2423
01:20:25,250 --> 01:20:27,000
these discoveries most people

2424
01:20:27,000 --> 01:20:29,291
don't know there are 8 000 exoplanets

2425
01:20:29,291 --> 01:20:30,166
we've discovered people

2426
01:20:30,166 --> 01:20:31,041
start arguing about whether

2427
01:20:31,458 --> 01:20:33,166
Pluto is a planet people are still trying

2428
01:20:33,166 --> 01:20:34,416
to memorize the names of

2429
01:20:34,416 --> 01:20:35,250
the eight or nine planets

2430
01:20:35,250 --> 01:20:38,333
our system nobody learns in school like

2431
01:20:38,333 --> 01:20:40,083
not in sixth seventh grade

2432
01:20:40,083 --> 01:20:41,416
or high school nobody learns

2433
01:20:41,416 --> 01:20:43,041
that there are thousands of exoplanets

2434
01:20:43,041 --> 01:20:44,375
nobody learns that we still

2435
01:20:44,375 --> 01:20:46,500
learn about mercury, venus,

2436
01:20:46,500 --> 01:20:49,041
earth, you know like nobody is learning

2437
01:20:49,041 --> 01:20:50,333
about these exoplanet

2438
01:20:50,333 --> 01:20:51,958
discoveries um so they're in

2439
01:20:51,958 --> 01:20:54,166
the popular press in the media but

2440
01:20:54,166 --> 01:20:56,458
they're not covered in the

2441
01:20:56,458 --> 01:20:57,500
middle school high school science

2442
01:20:57,916 --> 01:20:59,625
textbook as far as I know I'm sure that

2443
01:20:59,625 --> 01:21:01,500
varies from state to state so I'm

2444
01:21:01,500 --> 01:21:02,791
speaking in generalities

2445
01:21:02,791 --> 01:21:04,583
so I know some listener will say oh yeah

2446
01:21:04,583 --> 01:21:06,500
my kid is learning but not

2447
01:21:06,500 --> 01:21:07,875
all school districts are equal

2448
01:21:07,875 --> 01:21:09,958
we know this education is different

2449
01:21:09,958 --> 01:21:11,833
different states different cities and

2450
01:21:11,833 --> 01:21:13,625
from my understanding

2451
01:21:13,625 --> 01:21:15,708
from what I've seen people aren't are not

2452
01:21:15,708 --> 01:21:16,750
learning about these

2453
01:21:16,750 --> 01:21:19,083
discoveries and so going back to your

2454
01:21:19,083 --> 01:21:21,500
point about changing people's minds who

2455
01:21:21,500 --> 01:21:23,708
have things one way you can't

2456
01:21:23,708 --> 01:21:24,875
do that if people aren't even

2457
01:21:25,208 --> 01:21:27,791
getting the basic facts and data from a

2458
01:21:27,791 --> 01:21:30,166
young age so education you

2459
01:21:30,166 --> 01:21:31,708
think would be key in helping

2460
01:21:31,708 --> 01:21:34,208
people be better informed about this yeah

2461
01:21:34,208 --> 01:21:35,625
people aren't really

2462
01:21:35,625 --> 01:21:37,041
informed about recent discoveries

2463
01:21:37,041 --> 01:21:39,875
like exoplanets and astronomy and so I

2464
01:21:39,875 --> 01:21:41,125
think people are are

2465
01:21:41,125 --> 01:21:43,500
ready to accept that humanity

2466
01:21:43,500 --> 01:21:45,458
may be entirely alone but we're not ready

2467
01:21:45,458 --> 01:21:47,750
to accept um the

2468
01:21:47,750 --> 01:21:50,000
presence of physical non-human

2469
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:51,333
intelligence but you know from a

2470
01:21:51,333 --> 01:21:52,125
religious perspective there

2471
01:21:52,125 --> 01:21:53,125
are you know people believe

2472
01:21:53,416 --> 01:21:55,583
in angels and demons that are better than

2473
01:21:55,583 --> 01:21:57,625
humans stronger right so

2474
01:21:57,625 --> 01:22:00,416
and more intelligent and so

2475
01:22:00,416 --> 01:22:04,458
maybe you know we that maybe we are

2476
01:22:04,458 --> 01:22:07,333
underselling ourselves and maybe if

2477
01:22:07,333 --> 01:22:08,208
aliens are real maybe

2478
01:22:08,208 --> 01:22:10,208
humanity is ready to accept that and

2479
01:22:10,208 --> 01:22:13,333
maybe we're we're too we are

2480
01:22:13,333 --> 01:22:15,916
we are wrong and all the and the

2481
01:22:15,916 --> 01:22:17,750
philosophers and and and uh people like

2482
01:22:17,750 --> 01:22:18,583
alexander went what if

2483
01:22:18,583 --> 01:22:19,833
they're wrong and humanity will be

2484
01:22:20,083 --> 01:22:22,458
like okay that's cool i mean or they'll

2485
01:22:22,458 --> 01:22:24,125
be mass panic and blah blah

2486
01:22:24,125 --> 01:22:25,458
blah i'm not i'm not convinced

2487
01:22:25,458 --> 01:22:29,500
that'd be mass panic um again aliens are

2488
01:22:29,500 --> 01:22:30,708
only one hypothesis for

2489
01:22:30,708 --> 01:22:32,250
uaps they're one of my favorite

2490
01:22:32,250 --> 01:22:34,208
for obvious reasons you know the

2491
01:22:34,208 --> 01:22:35,750
anomalous velocities and

2492
01:22:35,750 --> 01:22:37,958
accelerations they're consistent

2493
01:22:37,958 --> 01:22:40,000
with with craft with spacecraft with good

2494
01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:40,958
spacecraft my my

2495
01:22:40,958 --> 01:22:41,666
colleague professor kevin

2496
01:22:41,666 --> 01:22:43,791
khanuth has a published paper saying that

2497
01:22:43,791 --> 01:22:44,750
you know there are very

2498
01:22:44,750 --> 01:22:46,000
few publications as we were

2499
01:22:46,250 --> 01:22:48,083
talking about earlier on uap in real

2500
01:22:48,083 --> 01:22:50,958
journals but there is there is evidence

2501
01:22:50,958 --> 01:22:52,958
not proof but there is

2502
01:22:52,958 --> 01:22:56,250
good evidence that suggests we should we

2503
01:22:56,250 --> 01:22:57,208
should take the et

2504
01:22:57,208 --> 01:22:58,500
hypothesis seriously we shouldn't

2505
01:22:58,500 --> 01:23:00,875
laugh it off do you have any questions

2506
01:23:00,875 --> 01:23:02,833
for me perhaps that um you

2507
01:23:02,833 --> 01:23:04,375
know you've been wanting to

2508
01:23:04,375 --> 01:23:09,708
ask yeah i i do why can't why can't we

2509
01:23:09,708 --> 01:23:10,500
just see some footage

2510
01:23:10,500 --> 01:23:12,333
of this i want to see the

2511
01:23:12,583 --> 01:23:14,625
i want to have some footage of what you

2512
01:23:14,625 --> 01:23:15,791
saw and not just footage

2513
01:23:15,791 --> 01:23:16,500
because everyone can say

2514
01:23:16,500 --> 01:23:21,833
oh that was fake i want to see filier and

2515
01:23:21,833 --> 01:23:23,625
regular camera visible light

2516
01:23:23,625 --> 01:23:24,875
and i want to see write our

2517
01:23:24,875 --> 01:23:27,333
data i want to see the data because i

2518
01:23:27,333 --> 01:23:28,750
think one of the issues we

2519
01:23:28,750 --> 01:23:30,875
currently have about uap research

2520
01:23:30,875 --> 01:23:34,875
the best data is classified and that's a

2521
01:23:34,875 --> 01:23:35,750
serious problem

2522
01:23:35,750 --> 01:23:37,291
because if i'm a scientist

2523
01:23:38,125 --> 01:23:40,500
and i tell my scientist colleague hey you

2524
01:23:40,500 --> 01:23:41,208
know there was this thing

2525
01:23:41,208 --> 01:23:42,791
that was going 10,000 miles

2526
01:23:42,791 --> 01:23:45,166
per hour without a sonic boom really

2527
01:23:45,166 --> 01:23:47,291
prove it oh i can't the data is

2528
01:23:47,291 --> 01:23:48,458
classified okay well then um

2529
01:23:48,458 --> 01:23:49,750
you're you're i'm not listening to you

2530
01:23:49,750 --> 01:23:51,666
anymore this is a joke but

2531
01:23:51,666 --> 01:23:53,458
then how am i going to doubt

2532
01:23:53,458 --> 01:23:55,166
you know people like you like you know

2533
01:23:55,166 --> 01:23:56,875
are men and women in

2534
01:23:56,875 --> 01:23:58,208
uniform who've experienced these

2535
01:23:58,208 --> 01:24:00,833
things and we're going to say oh cantress

2536
01:24:00,833 --> 01:24:01,875
eyewitnesses they're all

2537
01:24:01,875 --> 01:24:02,791
crazy they don't have the data

2538
01:24:03,875 --> 01:24:05,833
the the hard data should come out and

2539
01:24:05,833 --> 01:24:07,500
i've heard all the counter arguments oh

2540
01:24:07,500 --> 01:24:08,166
we don't want russia

2541
01:24:08,166 --> 01:24:10,000
and china to know what american sensors

2542
01:24:10,000 --> 01:24:12,083
do oh come there are ways

2543
01:24:12,083 --> 01:24:14,083
around this what you you can

2544
01:24:14,083 --> 01:24:18,500
you can remove um some some of the the

2545
01:24:18,500 --> 01:24:19,916
metadata again not ideal

2546
01:24:19,916 --> 01:24:20,666
scientists will say it's still

2547
01:24:20,666 --> 01:24:22,375
not good enough but at least there's got

2548
01:24:22,375 --> 01:24:23,291
to be some kind of

2549
01:24:23,291 --> 01:24:24,458
compromise where you can remove some

2550
01:24:24,458 --> 01:24:26,833
of the information and i don't you know

2551
01:24:26,833 --> 01:24:29,708
the spy one bravo radar age

2552
01:24:29,708 --> 01:24:31,208
system things like that remove

2553
01:24:31,500 --> 01:24:33,583
some of the key information so it can't

2554
01:24:33,583 --> 01:24:34,916
be duplicated by our

2555
01:24:34,916 --> 01:24:37,333
adversaries but give out at

2556
01:24:37,333 --> 01:24:39,791
least enough information where scientists

2557
01:24:39,791 --> 01:24:41,125
can start can start

2558
01:24:41,125 --> 01:24:43,708
studying because i feel like

2559
01:24:43,708 --> 01:24:46,000
we are on an uphill battle we've got uapx

2560
01:24:46,000 --> 01:24:47,666
galley a project and maybe

2561
01:24:47,666 --> 01:24:48,916
we're going to get some hard

2562
01:24:48,916 --> 01:24:51,208
evidence but it's really annoying when

2563
01:24:51,208 --> 01:24:52,333
you stop and think for a

2564
01:24:52,333 --> 01:24:54,000
second say wait a second the

2565
01:24:54,000 --> 01:24:55,666
government's got way better evidence than

2566
01:24:55,666 --> 01:24:57,250
maybe we'll ever had with like

2567
01:24:57,250 --> 01:24:58,000
billion-dollar sensors

2568
01:24:58,916 --> 01:25:01,541
can we see that you know i i feel like

2569
01:25:01,541 --> 01:25:02,791
progress is not going to be

2570
01:25:02,791 --> 01:25:05,458
made unless science is open

2571
01:25:05,458 --> 01:25:07,458
so i've heard you know they've got over

2572
01:25:07,458 --> 01:25:08,416
they've got scientists

2573
01:25:08,416 --> 01:25:10,625
they're working on secret programs

2574
01:25:10,625 --> 01:25:12,125
that's not going to solve that's not

2575
01:25:12,125 --> 01:25:13,458
going to solve it um a

2576
01:25:13,458 --> 01:25:14,875
good analogy is the manhattan

2577
01:25:14,875 --> 01:25:16,708
project that was a secret project how

2578
01:25:16,708 --> 01:25:17,458
many scientists here you

2579
01:25:17,458 --> 01:25:19,000
had hundreds you're not

2580
01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:22,166
going to solve uap we're like the five

2581
01:25:22,166 --> 01:25:22,958
ten scientists even if they're the most brilliant

2582
01:25:23,666 --> 01:25:26,583
people you're going to need hundreds of

2583
01:25:26,583 --> 01:25:27,250
scientists you're going to need a

2584
01:25:27,250 --> 01:25:28,791
manhattan project style

2585
01:25:28,791 --> 01:25:30,291
thing you know like for to figure out

2586
01:25:30,291 --> 01:25:32,166
what uap are and in order

2587
01:25:32,166 --> 01:25:33,208
for that to happen sort of a

2588
01:25:33,208 --> 01:25:34,708
chicken and egg problem you want people

2589
01:25:34,708 --> 01:25:36,000
to take it seriously

2590
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:38,208
enough to say that it's worth uh

2591
01:25:38,208 --> 01:25:40,041
is worth spending money on yeah well let

2592
01:25:40,041 --> 01:25:41,000
me try to answer your

2593
01:25:41,000 --> 01:25:44,250
question um so you've seen the the

2594
01:25:44,250 --> 01:25:48,333
the at flare footage um that that was

2595
01:25:48,333 --> 01:25:49,916
released because it not our

2596
01:25:49,916 --> 01:25:50,791
best answer right so exactly

2597
01:25:51,166 --> 01:25:52,958
i think to the point the point you made

2598
01:25:52,958 --> 01:25:55,416
is our best sensors are classified i

2599
01:25:55,416 --> 01:25:56,166
think that's probably

2600
01:25:56,166 --> 01:25:58,166
always going to be the case right uh if

2601
01:25:58,166 --> 01:25:58,958
we're receiving it's

2602
01:25:58,958 --> 01:26:00,458
probably because it's not the best

2603
01:26:00,458 --> 01:26:02,291
information they have yeah i think that i

2604
01:26:02,291 --> 01:26:02,958
think we could probably

2605
01:26:02,958 --> 01:26:04,291
expect that to continue but i

2606
01:26:04,291 --> 01:26:06,666
think there are mechanisms through you

2607
01:26:06,666 --> 01:26:08,000
know statistical

2608
01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:09,250
distribution and other methods that

2609
01:26:09,250 --> 01:26:13,833
you can use to um remove the classified

2610
01:26:13,833 --> 01:26:14,791
portions of the data if

2611
01:26:14,791 --> 01:26:16,541
they're well defined exactly to

2612
01:26:16,958 --> 01:26:19,208
bring out something into hopefully the

2613
01:26:19,208 --> 01:26:20,458
civil world to be able to

2614
01:26:20,458 --> 01:26:22,291
do or attack it with more

2615
01:26:22,291 --> 01:26:23,500
minds just like you said because i agree

2616
01:26:23,500 --> 01:26:25,125
i think that's is the way to

2617
01:26:25,125 --> 01:26:27,041
do it um and i think that i

2618
01:26:27,041 --> 01:26:28,791
think there are ways that that can be

2619
01:26:28,791 --> 01:26:30,416
accomplished i think um the

2620
01:26:30,416 --> 01:26:31,958
all-domain anomaly resolution

2621
01:26:31,958 --> 01:26:34,791
office that's uh working on this problem

2622
01:26:34,791 --> 01:26:37,875
now has that um has that

2623
01:26:37,875 --> 01:26:39,041
mandate but i think it's

2624
01:26:39,041 --> 01:26:40,958
uh something that they are in the process

2625
01:26:40,958 --> 01:26:42,750
of standing up um i

2626
01:26:42,750 --> 01:26:43,375
think they're really they're

2627
01:26:43,708 --> 01:26:46,208
underfunded and undermaned yeah it's i

2628
01:26:46,208 --> 01:26:47,583
think this is a serious

2629
01:26:47,583 --> 01:26:49,250
issue and it's still not taken

2630
01:26:49,250 --> 01:26:50,750
seriously enough we have congressional

2631
01:26:50,750 --> 01:26:53,333
hearings we have the a a ro

2632
01:26:53,333 --> 01:26:54,666
but i think they're they don't

2633
01:26:54,666 --> 01:26:56,000
have the money and the resources they

2634
01:26:56,000 --> 01:26:57,083
need to really tackle the

2635
01:26:57,083 --> 01:26:58,541
problem i can't feel like i

2636
01:26:58,541 --> 01:27:01,083
have to suggest that they are feeling the

2637
01:27:01,083 --> 01:27:02,125
seriousness of the issue

2638
01:27:02,125 --> 01:27:03,583
now especially with the

2639
01:27:03,583 --> 01:27:06,500
the balloon incidents the you know the

2640
01:27:06,500 --> 01:27:08,625
demonstration of a domain awareness gap

2641
01:27:08,958 --> 01:27:10,458
on the national stage i have to assume

2642
01:27:10,458 --> 01:27:12,500
it's being taken serious

2643
01:27:12,500 --> 01:27:14,708
now so i guess the other

2644
01:27:14,708 --> 01:27:16,083
the question is why are there still all

2645
01:27:16,083 --> 01:27:17,000
these problems so what is

2646
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:18,916
the hold up well the hold

2647
01:27:18,916 --> 01:27:20,833
up is so then you gave a great example

2648
01:27:20,833 --> 01:27:22,500
with the balloons you have the wall

2649
01:27:22,500 --> 01:27:23,500
street journal saying

2650
01:27:23,500 --> 01:27:25,833
that the ufo bubble has popped and saying

2651
01:27:25,833 --> 01:27:28,416
it's all balloon so it's all nonsense

2652
01:27:28,416 --> 01:27:29,208
which you and i know

2653
01:27:29,208 --> 01:27:31,083
is absurd balloons don't move at

2654
01:27:31,083 --> 01:27:32,958
thousands of miles an hour against the

2655
01:27:32,958 --> 01:27:34,625
wind accelerated hundreds of g

2656
01:27:34,958 --> 01:27:39,333
it's absurd just because some anomalies

2657
01:27:39,333 --> 01:27:40,916
ended up being tiny spy

2658
01:27:40,916 --> 01:27:43,166
balloons doesn't mean all the

2659
01:27:43,166 --> 01:27:44,375
anomalies are spy balloons you're not

2660
01:27:44,375 --> 01:27:46,625
going to explain nimits

2661
01:27:46,625 --> 01:27:47,875
you're not going to explain west

2662
01:27:47,875 --> 01:27:49,458
coast east coast what you experience

2663
01:27:49,458 --> 01:27:50,000
you're not going to explain

2664
01:27:50,000 --> 01:27:52,083
the roosevelt incident you can't

2665
01:27:52,083 --> 01:27:54,125
explain those all as balloons or drones

2666
01:27:54,125 --> 01:27:56,500
for that matter and so

2667
01:27:56,500 --> 01:27:58,750
every time we take three steps

2668
01:27:58,750 --> 01:28:00,708
forward we take several steps back you

2669
01:28:00,708 --> 01:28:01,750
get journalists who

2670
01:28:01,750 --> 01:28:04,208
publish hit pieces um for example

2671
01:28:04,583 --> 01:28:06,791
there were there were hit pieces uh

2672
01:28:06,791 --> 01:28:10,041
published against the um uh galler

2673
01:28:10,041 --> 01:28:11,208
project that's stupid

2674
01:28:11,208 --> 01:28:13,500
and waste of money i can tell you obvious

2675
01:28:13,500 --> 01:28:15,166
not happy with that um

2676
01:28:15,166 --> 01:28:16,666
uapx we haven't had that much

2677
01:28:16,666 --> 01:28:19,041
because we're broke but once if we start

2678
01:28:19,041 --> 01:28:19,708
publishing papers and

2679
01:28:19,708 --> 01:28:20,791
stuff i'm sure there'll be

2680
01:28:20,791 --> 01:28:22,666
we'll have our own hit pieces about how

2681
01:28:22,666 --> 01:28:23,875
this is dumb and a

2682
01:28:23,875 --> 01:28:25,375
waste of time and money

2683
01:28:25,375 --> 01:28:27,625
and so those kinds of things those

2684
01:28:27,625 --> 01:28:29,875
demoralize people you know

2685
01:28:29,875 --> 01:28:31,291
and and and and it's not just

2686
01:28:31,583 --> 01:28:34,000
uaps imagine you're working on some

2687
01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:34,958
exotic propulsion for

2688
01:28:34,958 --> 01:28:36,250
nasa or for some private

2689
01:28:36,250 --> 01:28:38,416
aerospace company and and someone

2690
01:28:38,416 --> 01:28:39,500
publishes something that

2691
01:28:39,500 --> 01:28:41,000
says oh that's stupid that'll

2692
01:28:41,000 --> 01:28:43,208
never work i mean there's historical

2693
01:28:43,208 --> 01:28:46,000
precedent for this air travel there were

2694
01:28:46,000 --> 01:28:46,916
great there were not

2695
01:28:46,916 --> 01:28:49,916
just journalists scientists said faster

2696
01:28:49,916 --> 01:28:51,250
than that they said that

2697
01:28:51,250 --> 01:28:53,125
heavier than air flying machines

2698
01:28:53,125 --> 01:28:56,333
never never will never happen one one one

2699
01:28:56,333 --> 01:28:57,333
person once wrote i think

2700
01:28:57,333 --> 01:28:58,000
it was the new york times

2701
01:28:58,750 --> 01:29:00,791
editorial actually it's like a century

2702
01:29:00,791 --> 01:29:01,916
more in the century ago

2703
01:29:01,916 --> 01:29:04,958
where they wrote not only is our

2704
01:29:04,958 --> 01:29:07,125
airplanes impossible they'll be

2705
01:29:07,125 --> 01:29:08,958
impossible in a thousand years and

2706
01:29:08,958 --> 01:29:10,000
they'll still be impossible in

2707
01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:11,833
a million years so what are you supposed

2708
01:29:11,833 --> 01:29:12,958
to do when you're up against

2709
01:29:12,958 --> 01:29:14,916
that right so and with uap so

2710
01:29:14,916 --> 01:29:16,916
it's a really tough that's a really tough

2711
01:29:16,916 --> 01:29:18,583
amount in a climb because

2712
01:29:18,583 --> 01:29:20,458
you you still have people

2713
01:29:20,458 --> 01:29:23,625
laughing and laughing at you not with you

2714
01:29:23,625 --> 01:29:25,083
not with you at you

2715
01:29:25,083 --> 01:29:26,000
about about this this is this

2716
01:29:26,333 --> 01:29:28,458
whole endeavor and you know who little

2717
01:29:28,458 --> 01:29:29,541
green men and start making

2718
01:29:29,541 --> 01:29:32,333
fun of you um when again like we

2719
01:29:32,333 --> 01:29:34,291
said earlier even though aliens are a

2720
01:29:34,291 --> 01:29:35,291
valid hypothesis they're

2721
01:29:35,291 --> 01:29:37,375
not the only one there could

2722
01:29:37,375 --> 01:29:39,583
be some weird i don't know plasma

2723
01:29:39,583 --> 01:29:40,708
atmospheric phenomenon that we

2724
01:29:40,708 --> 01:29:42,166
don't know about that's still

2725
01:29:42,166 --> 01:29:43,708
worth studying that's still worth

2726
01:29:43,708 --> 01:29:45,291
figuring out just because it

2727
01:29:45,291 --> 01:29:46,333
may not be aliens doesn't mean

2728
01:29:46,333 --> 01:29:48,041
it's not worth studying we need to figure

2729
01:29:48,041 --> 01:29:50,416
out what it is well matt i

2730
01:29:50,416 --> 01:29:51,291
appreciate you making that climb

2731
01:29:51,500 --> 01:29:54,583
up the mountain with me i'll suggest and

2732
01:29:54,583 --> 01:29:55,333
i think there are a

2733
01:29:55,333 --> 01:29:56,666
growing number of people that are

2734
01:29:56,666 --> 01:29:58,916
willing to climb up the mountain i don't

2735
01:29:58,916 --> 01:29:59,916
think there's a lot of

2736
01:29:59,916 --> 01:30:02,250
shades of gray with the stigma

2737
01:30:02,250 --> 01:30:05,458
around this topic there's a there's a

2738
01:30:05,458 --> 01:30:06,666
wall of stigma if you're on

2739
01:30:06,666 --> 01:30:08,500
one side of it you're you're

2740
01:30:08,500 --> 01:30:09,958
completely and fully bought in on that

2741
01:30:09,958 --> 01:30:11,958
side and if you've put your

2742
01:30:11,958 --> 01:30:13,791
if you've integrated yourself

2743
01:30:13,791 --> 01:30:15,333
enough to be on the other side of that

2744
01:30:15,333 --> 01:30:16,958
stigma wall then you're

2745
01:30:16,958 --> 01:30:17,916
pretty much fully bought in on

2746
01:30:18,125 --> 01:30:21,916
that side as well um so thank you for the

2747
01:30:21,916 --> 01:30:23,125
efforts that you're doing

2748
01:30:23,125 --> 01:30:24,541
um i think they're extremely

2749
01:30:24,541 --> 01:30:27,500
valuable thank you for applying your your

2750
01:30:27,500 --> 01:30:30,750
your physics experience to

2751
01:30:30,750 --> 01:30:31,750
this other mystery that we